An open letter from the Christian Left to the Christian Right

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The Christian Left Welcomes You

And we are LIVE on the interwebs! Yes! Yes sir! Yes siree! We are The Christian Left! … Yes we are; Yes we can; and Yes we will! 😀 This is only the beginning of our work on this page. Expect many great features as we move forward. Welcome!

Ed Schultz asked on his radio show recently, “Is there a ‘religious left’?” Yes, Ed. There is. We are The Christian Left. We’re all around you. We’re among the people. Take a look. We’re part of the Body of Christ. We’re Christians. We’re Liberal. We make no apologies. In fact Jesus’ ways are “Liberal.” That’s why He was killed. The Pharisees and the Sadducees were the conservatives of their time. This is clear. Oh and Ed, we love you. Keep up the good fight!

We’re not ‘New Age.’ We’re not waiting for some earthly leader to come and make everything alright – that man already came. When He comes back, there will be no doubt who HE is. Everyone, without exception, will know. Until then, we are part of the Body of Christ. We’re not ‘Communists’ or ‘Marxists’ either. We reject all such labels. We will not be profiled or pigeonholed and we will not ‘Be Quiet.’ We’re Christians. We’re Liberals. Please get used to it. Thank you. ;>)

Ann Coulter, Godless? Really? Wow …

See, it wasn’t just Jesus’ birth, death, and resurrection that matter. It was his life too! The life he lived is a huge part of the deal, and he asked us to do a few things if you look at his words. Not only is what Jesus said the Word of God, but what Jesus DID is also the Word of God. Looking at the life of Jesus we see that Jesus made room for those cut off from the rest of society. Jesus put a name and a face on all who had been forgotten or pushed aside, even the dead. Jesus called us to carry our cross daily and follow him. That’s what Social Justice means.

“The Christian Left” — left hate behind; left prejudice; left callous attitudes; and followed Jesus as HE left the 99 in the fold, to go find the ones who were lost, ignored, excluded, overlooked, abandoned, uncared-for — all “the least of these.” We left hard-heartedness in order to be like the Samaritan who stopped to care for those in need.

James 1:27 Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world. James 2:15-16 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, “Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it?

What We’re All About:

We’re not about Dogma here. We’re just Christians who think the political and Christian right-wing have their priorities wrong.

Wikipedia says it pretty well in the following paragraphs:

The Christian left is a term originating in the United States, used to describe a spectrum of left-wing Christian political and social movements which largely embraces social justice.

The most common religious viewpoint which might be described as ‘left wing’ is social justice, or care for the poor and the oppressed. Supporters of this might encourage universal health care, welfare provision, subsidized education, foreign aid, and Affirmative Action for improving the conditions of the disadvantaged. Stemming from egalitarian values (and what Jesus Himself said), adherents of the Christian left consider it part of their religious duty to take actions on behalf of the oppressed.

The Christian Left holds that social justice, renunciation of power, humility, forgiveness, and private observation of prayer (as opposed to publicly mandated prayer), are mandated by the Gospel (Matthew 6:5-6). The Bible contains accounts of Jesus repeatedly advocating for the poor and outcast over the wealthy, powerful, and religious. The Christian Left maintains that such a stance is relevant and important. Adhering to the standard of “turning the other cheek,” which they believe supersedes the Old Testament law of “an eye for an eye,” the Christian Left often hearkens towards pacifism in opposition to policies advancing militarism. Many passages in the Bible illustrate the example set by Jesus regarding violence:

Luke 22: 49-51 When Jesus’ followers saw what was going to happen, they said, “Lord, should we strike with our swords?” And one of them struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear. But Jesus answered, “No more of this!” And he touched the man’s ear and healed him.

Luke 9:53-56 And the town did not receive him, because he was headed to Jerusalem. And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elisha did? But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, “Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.” For the Son of man is not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.

While non-religious socialists sometimes find support for socialism in the Gospels (for example Mikhail Gorbachev citing Jesus as “the first socialist”), The Christian Left does not find that socialism alone is an adequate end or means. Christian faith is the core of their belief which in turn demands social justice.

The Christian Left sometimes differs from other Christian political groups on issues including homosexuality. This is often not a matter of different religious ideas, but one of focus — viewing the prohibitions against killing, or the criticism of concentrations of wealth, as far more important than social issues emphasized by the religious right, such as opposition to active homosexuality. In this case, similar to philosophies expressed by writers such as C.S. Lewis, these members of the Christian Left believe homosexual sex to be overemphasized when compared with issues relating to social justice, or even matters of sexual morality involving heterosexual sex. Bottom Line: We welcome ALL to their place at God’s table, just as they are. All means ALL. No exceptions. We reject all attempts to define our Faith by the two wedge issues of Gay Marriage and Abortion. — End of Wikipedia content.

The Christian Left doesn’t get uptight about the same things as their right-wing brothers and sisters. Lefties tend to accept that we’re all trapped in the human condition, that we all struggle, and that we’re all sinners. They tend to focus on behaviors that Jesus focused on while he was here in body — things like hypocrisy, organized oppression, exorbitant greed, self-righteousness, judgmentalism, selfishness, abuse of power, violence, etc.

Paul defined the human condition well: Romans 7: 14-25 “We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!”

Too many Christians espouse a deeply ingrained code of written and unwritten expectations and rules that shame them and drain them of spiritual strength. The Christian Left focuses on a message to help people unmask the lies that keep them on a works/righteousness treadmill; a message to help people discover the liberation of the gospel, the grace in Jesus Christ, and the rest that comes from what Christ has done on the cross. Salvation is a free gift. It cannot be earned. But Grace isn’t cheap. After what Jesus has done for us, we offer our best to live up to what he asks from us (to follow his commandments).

Here’s what Jesus had to say regarding his commandments:

Matthew 22:34-40 Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Many people accuse us of “Cherry-Picking” the Bible. We reject this silly sentiment. We think Jesus made things about as clear as they can get.

Another Christian Lefty, Marilyn Chandler McEntyre, Professor of English at Westmont College, Santa Barbara, California, put it this way in her article “A Voice from the Christian Left.”

“Many on the Christian Right are fond of posing the question WWJD?– What would Jesus do? I’d like to remind them whatJesus DID do: He cared for the poor. He did not condemn the woman caught in adultery. He prayed alone. He commanded us to love our enemies. He preached peace. He ate, drank, and lived with ‘tax collectors and sinners’ — the lowlifes and outcasts of his day, while reserving his condemnation for the religious leaders who, from a place of privilege, imposed their legalism and literalism on the people they were responsible for leading. He told his disciples not to oppose the healing work of those outside the ranks of his followers. And again and again he reminded us to care for the poor. (That moral issue gets more air time than any other in the gospels: 1 verse in 9.) If Christians concerned about how to respond to the grave global issues facing us all were to reread the Gospels for guidance, I think we’d find some pretty clear indications there about what Jesus would do … and what he wouldn’t. (One of the few bumper stickers I’ve been tempted to affix to my still undecorated car in recent months reads ‘Who would Jesus bomb?’)

Whatever Jesus would do, given what he did do, and has promised he will do, I don’t think it looks much like what the insulated, self-congratulatory Fox News fans on the ‘Christian Right’ are doing.” [End of Marilyn Chandler McEntyre Quote]

Based on the Word, The Christian Left believes it’s obvious that the primary message of Jesus was love — Love for God, and love for our fellow men and women.

Matthew 22:37-40 You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the great and foremost commandment. And a second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.

John 13:34-35 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.

Matthew 7:12 Whatever you want others to do for you, do so for them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

Luke 6:35 But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward in heaven will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men.

Mark 10:43-45 Whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant; and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be slave of all. For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve and to give His life a ransom for many.

John 13:14-15 If I then, the Lord and the Teacher, washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another’s feet. For I gave you an example that you also should do as I did to you.

Love God and love people.Forgive people over and over again, as you have been forgiven by God over and over again. Show mercy, as you have been shown mercy by God. Help the weak, the sick, the depressed, the poor, the jailed, the oppressed, the marginalized, the outcast — for one day you could be weak, sick, depressed, poor, jailed, oppressed, marginalized, outcast. It is also the only reasonable response to God’s overwhelming grace – sharing the same grace with the world.

The Christian Left rejects exclusivity. We believe that John the Baptist wasn’t kidding when he proclaimed the coming of Jesus saying, “and all flesh shall see the salvation of God.” We firmly believe that all means ALL. The exclusionary gospel of the Christian Right is foreign to us. We do not recognize it. Jesus came to set the captives free and announce the arrival of the peaceable kingdom of God where ALL are welcomed. Like a member of The Christian Left (Shannon Maynard) has said, one of our favorite words in the Bible is “whosoever.”

The exclusionary tactics and demonization that is so frequently practiced by the Christian Right is not of the Jesus we follow. John the Baptist said, “every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.” The tree that is the Christian Right all too frequently bears fruit of anger, hate and judgment. It produces some strange fruit. “The same strange fruit that white supremacists hung from the trees in the South. The same strange fruit that the Nazis baked in the ovens of Auschwitz. The same strange fruit that was diced and sliced with machetes in Rwanda. The same strange fruit that is left to rot to death in Africa because the cost of a cure may undercut someone’s bottom line. The same strange fruit that is pounded to death daily with rocks and bombs in the Middle East. The same strange fruit that are depressed to death because of homophobic bullying. Trees that bear these fruits, systems that bear these fruits are to be cut down and thrown into the fires – they are the chaff that God wills to burn in an “unquenchable fire,” where they will bear the fruit of domination no longer.” (from Rev. Mark Sandlin’s sermon, “All Means All.”)

Unfortunately in this country today, we have a sort of spiritual revival of the Pharisees –people who don’t want to practice love, grace, or compassion, but would rather try to bury people under legalistic demands that they themselves aren’t capable of keeping. Culturally crusading right-wing Christians have substituted the Gospel of Jesus Christ for a Gospel of Morality. They’ve made it more about following rules than loving God (having a relationship with Christ) and loving their fellow brothers and sisters. This is unacceptable. It’s exactly what Jesus spoke out against. People are stuck in the Gospel of Morality. They are drained by the shame it produces. Far too many are repulsed by this false religious system they can’t live up to. This insanity must stop. When we walk with Jesus, he refines us as he sees fit, by his Spirit. Proponents of the Gospel of Morality don’t get that on some level. Jesus didn’t say “Get refined then follow me.” He said “Follow Me … and get refined, the way only I can refine.” Isaiah 64:8; Jeremiah 18:2; Jeremiah 18:6; Romans 8:28; Matthew 4:19

Many folks stop by and tell us to keep up the great work in the name of Christian Charity. Charity is only part of the message. The danger here is allowing it to become about charity only, rather than social justice as well. Charity tries to fix up people so that the system will work better. Justice tries to fix up the system so that people will work better. We agree that a charitable attitude is important … but it does not address the root of the problem, a system that sets up obstacles and barriers that make it nearly impossible for people to break the cycle of poverty, or the cycle of victimization, or marginalization, or the cycle of …; Again, Jesus came to set the captives free. Colloquially charity clearly means to help someone with their immediate needs. Justice suggests that something deeper happens. Charity allows the cycle to repeat, justice readdresses that system that causes the cycle. Charity is as much about the giver as the one receiving. Justice is solely about the one receiving. Give a man a fish he eats for a day, teach a man to fish he eats for a lifetime. The System will never be perfect here on Earth, so Charity will always be required, but that’s no excuse to not advocate for The System to be just for all. When it is, the need for Charity decreases. The two are inextricably enmeshed.

So why are we here and why are we making these statements? Because there should be tension, risk and discomfort while doing ministry work, especially when we challenge deep-seated, right-wing, fundamentalist theology. It’s ugly, messy and dangerous. Oh, but worth every minute! If you are not attracting the same people that Jesus attracted, your message needs to be fixed. If the way you live the Good News (advocating Justice as restoration, universal inclusion, preaching a God of love and grace, feeding, quenching, clothing, healing, welcoming, visiting) does not place your life under a constant threat, you might want to question how fully you are living the Good News. It is time for The Christian Left to decry publicly the lies the right are telling about the Bible, and the fact that their interpretation of Scripture is slanted toward their fears and alleged concerns.

“A ship in harbor is safe — but that is not what ships are built for.” John A. Shedd, Salt from My Attic, 1928

“No rabbi [or other minister] can be called a real rabbi, if his congregation doesn’t want to run him out of town at least once in a while!” (attributed to Rabbi Hillel, 1st century BCE)

Our Mission Statement would be meaningless and incomplete if we didn’t point out Christ’s finished work on the cross. His birth, life, death and resurrection mean everything to us. John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that WHOEVER believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

Finally, The Christian Left doesn’t tend to march in lockstep. All of the above statements may not speak for all members of this group. The Christian Left is a spectrum, just as The Christian Right is one.

“It’s easier to bow down and shout constant hallelujahs than to get our own hands dirty by following him [Jesus] out into the world of brokenness and mess.” — Mark Townsend

“Sometimes I would like to ask God why He allows poverty, suffering, and injustice when He could do something about it. But I’m afraid He would ask me the same question.” – Anonymous

— The Christian Left

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147 thoughts on “An open letter from the Christian Left to the Christian Right

  1. Ha Ha! That’s hilarious. Thanks!

    It’s rather vain and presumptuous, though, to claim the high ground when the liberal left has diminished so much of the canon with its theological deconstruction, higher criticism, and refusal to accept God’s Word at face value.

    The notion that Jesus was politically either left or right is immature thinking. Taking scriptures out of context to prove a political position is contrary to everything Jesus stood for. If anything, he was apolitical. He was, in His day, antisocial. He tore up the accepted notions politically, religiously and socially. He said he hadn’t come to bring peace but a sword. He drew people to his cause by advancing the power and presence of Almighty God, but showed followers a life many rejected as too hard to live.

    He wanted to bring Israel back to the laid down traditions of the Mosaic Law by fulfilling it, then forward into the New Covenant by pioneering it.

    In fact, he built on the Law of Moses in the Sermon on the Mount, which not only ratified the Law, but took it further than any person could go. He radicalised the Law by making it impossible to follow, ultimately bringing a total dependence on the work of the cross to release people from the constraints of the law.

    He narrowed the Way even more than it already was. He didn’t broaden the scope for eternal life. He shrunk it, from works to faith, from law to grace.

    His was the Way of Righteousness and Justice, the level and the plumb line, the piece balance of the road straight down the middle. He came to straighten the crooked road and make the way clear for us to move towards grace, righteousness and salvation.

    There is no left or right to the walk with Christ. There is only the uprightness of right standing and the balance of the level, even acceptance of God, the welcoming arms of the forgiving God for those who change direction from their own prejudice, opinion, desires and aspirations, to His will.

  2. Dave and Ange Andrews have lived and worked with marginalised people in Asia and Australia for nearly four years. They started Aashiana, Sahara and Sharan, three well-known community organisations working with slum dwellers, sex workers, drug addicts and people with HIV/AIDS in India. They are currently working alongside Aborigines, refugees and people with disabilities in Brisbane Australia. Dave has written many books, including Christi-Anarchy, Not Religion But Love, People Of Compassion and Plan Be.

  3. Leftist Christianity – The Waiters Union

    The Waiters Union is a community of people living in the West End of Brisbane, Australia who practice many forms of “true” community. In engaging with the marginalised, disabled, demonised, alienated, needy and forgotten members of society, the Waiters Union lives out its Christ-centred existence being a light to those who live in the dark corners of society. The video features acclaimed writer and leader in this sort of community thinking, Dave Andrews, who lives in the West End community.

  4. It’s rather vain and presumptuous, though, to claim the high ground when the liberal left has diminished so much of the canon with its theological deconstruction, higher criticism, and refusal to accept God’s Word at face value

    Not taking the same view of something as another person may seem like a diminishment in your eyes – however in mine it means realistic – it means keeping my brain locked up in my head instead of removing it in order to accept things that are just plain outrageous.

    The right claims the left have a low -or impoverished view of the bible however this is just not so. I (and I count myself as a left leaning Christian) still view the bible as sacred and a text to base my faith and spirituality on. I do not require it to be 100% accurate – because it plainly isn’t…heck – the bible claims the sun stood still not once but twice! Joshua 10 (about a whole day) and in 2 Kings the sun actually moves backward 10 degrees

    Now we know that the sun is stationary and the earth moves around it, but let’s give the ancients the benefit of the doubt – let’s say the earth stopped still and it simply appeared as if the sun stood still…it would have caused worldwide catastrophe as everything moved sideways (imagine how you move when you throw down the brakes your car stops suddenly – well the earth is spinning a whole lot faster than your car, around 40,000km an hour to be precise – just imagine it – everyone being flung hundreds of meters, oceans sloshing all over the place.

    So it is simply impossible for that to have occurred – it is also impossible that the world stopped spinning one way and then spun a short distance backward and then stopped again and started spinning the right way once more as in 2 Kings.

    So my friend Steve – the bible (even in places where the text suggests nothing but a literal rendering) can’t be taken to be literal just because it seems the only way it can be taken. You actually do have to do a bit of digging and use your brain.

    Taking scriptures out of context to prove a political position is contrary to everything Jesus stood for.

    Where?

    How?

    He narrowed the Way even more than it already was. He didn’t broaden the scope for eternal life. He shrunk it, from works to faith, from law to grace.

    With this you show a slight misunderstanding of the purpose of the law – the law was there to show people that they could never keep the law – in fact that is why the system of sacrifice was in place – to make up for what obeying the law could not produce…assurance of salvation – justification!

    Jesus provided access to grace and justification by his LIFE DEATH and RESURRECTION –

    Romans 5:1&2a

    Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand.

    This grace and justification is for all of us Steve – not the elect, not for some, not for many, but for all – for whosoever may want it.

    Your idea that Jesus narrowed the way even further is a total mockery of what he came to do – he came to bring life – and that life more abundantly – Jesus opened up the doors to heaven for all those that the religious leaders were trying to keep out.

    The Zacheus’, the tax collectors, the sinners, the ‘Ocklos’ the mob, the crowds;

    In Matthew we read:

    And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people. But when he saw the multitudes, he was moved with compassion on them, because they fainted, and were scattered abroad, as sheep having no shepherd. Then said he to his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few ;

    Looks more like an opening of the way than a narrowing of it if you ask me Steve!

  5. Steve you say of Jesus; “If anything, he was apolitical.” and then follow that straight up with; “He was, in His day, antisocial. He tore up the accepted notions politically, religiously and socially. ”

    You can’t have it both ways mate – either he was, which is patently false, or he wasn’t, which is patently true…and slo why the Romans executed him. The Romans executed Jesus because they believed he posed a threat to their political power. Jesus was a person whose beliefs had significant political ramifications and so to call him a-political is naive in the extreme! I don’t belong to any political party – but by crikey I’m a political person – same with Jesus

  6. Jesus narrowed the Way because he became the way. There is no other name under heaven by which man can be saved. There is a Way. You say there is no way. Anyone enters, regardless of the
    life they lead, what they believe, who they follow. That’s the broadway, which Jesus said leads to destruction.

    He is the door. The only way in is through the veil of his flesh, through faith in him.

    The arrogant notion that the left way is the way, as promoted in the post, and by Bones, is, as I said earlier, immature. It is kindergarten theology. Paul called it the theology of schisms. People saying ‘I am of Paul’ or ‘I am of Apollos’, or ‘I am of Cephas’. Did Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas die for them?

    Jesus was not of the left or the right. He was God’s Son sent to save the world from sin. He ushered in the Kingdom of God, the Kingdom of Heaven, not some left-wing ideology. The ideas in the post are naive at best and provocative at worse. His was not a political party. He is the King, the one who has all authority.

    He didn’t come to bring social reform or be a social justice advocate. He came to bring in the Kingdom of Heaven. It was a completely new and remarkable cultural upheaval of seismic proportions. He radically changed the world.

    All this artical portrays is a parochial and divisive US politics driven slice of propaganda from a misguided liberal who levels some disgraceful and inaccurate accusations at what he calls Christians of the right.

    When you start measuring believers against political aims and levelling falsehoods against those you see as opposition forces of evil who are actually supposed to neon the same side you step over into a potentially schismic world which the devil himself is in raptures about, and which drives a wedge into the midst of God’s people.

  7. He didn’t come to bring social reform or be a social justice advocate.

    Really?

    Says it all about individualistic fundamentalism. God is only interested in your soul and who you’re sleeping with. Not justice nor liberty nor equality nor peace. It’s a reason why Bible believing Christians turned a blind eye and participated in racism. It’s all about getting to heaven.

    As Dave Andrews says we need to stop preaching and start being Christ. Starting with the beattitudes.

  8. How about we increase preaching and represent Christ with good deeds.

    Can you show me where any New Testament writer told us to stop preaching? Oh, I forgot, the New Testament is only for Christians and the are other ‘holy’ books other religionists can follow. I wonder what your ‘holy’ book is.

    You self-proclaimed leftists are so full of yourself. You are so self-pitying and self-promoting. Self-righteous. Proud. Condemning.

    You, like the naively propogandistic article, apply 21st century US liberal political standards to Jesus when he walked the earth, and try to pull the wool over people’s eyes as if this simplistic and theologically bankrupt philosophy were the new norm and most acceptable interpretation of the gospel.

    Meanwhile you demonise those you term the right, as if you wee he new standard bearers of truth.

    Jesus was the King. He didn’t bring a political party or philosophy to the earth. He brought a Kingdom, over which he will reign forever. His justice is far above the weak and flawed justice systems of liberal or conservative politics. The humanist judicial systems of the world will all face the True Judge and be found wanting. Most of left wing politics is amoral and antichristian.

    And you judge the world by US democrat politics! Naive!

    The only justice is the love of Everyman brought through the gospel. Without salvation all human empires is vanity. What good will it do anyone if they gain the world but lose their soul? The gospel is God’s justice.

  9. Can you show me where any New Testament writer told us to stop preaching?

    Can you show us anywhere where WE have said that?

    Jesus narrowed the Way because he became the way

    Yes, narrow in that Jesus is the way, and so the ‘way’ is only as wide as Jesus is, and yet that way is actually quite broad – broad enough for ‘whosoever’ to enter into the kingdom – which was as you say, was “a completely new and remarkable cultural upheaval of seismic proportions. He radically changed the world”. However I find it hard to see how that is not a political event as well?

    In anycase – this is not abouthumanistic politics – it is about the poltics of religions adn faith – those on the right have been very voacl about being the ‘silent right’ and yet when we on the left stand up and explain why we feel we are right you get all upset and say we are being divisive? Its not divisivness we seek – but acceptance as legitimately being a part of the body of Christ…The right is not all there is – and equally I agree that the left is not all there is.

  10. He didn’t come to bring social reform or be a social justice advocate and yet you quite rightly identified that Jesus’ life death and resurrection ushered in the kingdom of God which was “a completely new and remarkable cultural upheaval of seismic proportions. He radically changed the world”. Steve, you don’t seem to really understand what it is that you believe about Jesus

  11. Are you saying Jesus came into a democracy, with left and right politics based loosely on the post-modern US system?

    Are you saying he came to change the voting patterns of the Jewish parliament?

    What did Jesus come into? A nation under the rule of an invading army. There was no left or right, only an oppressed people under the subjugation of a conquering empirical army.

    He came to usher in his own Kingdom, which is not of this world.

    Your article is absolutely about modern, humanist, secular, US based polarised politics.

    It is a schismic nonsense and nothing to do with what Jesus came for and what Christians should stand for.

  12. And ad through it again and see what he says about the supposed right. It is fundamentally divisive and manipulative.

  13. That should say, ‘read through it again and see what he says about the supposed right. It is fundamentally divisive and manipulative’.

  14. Greg,
    can you show me where we said that [stop preaching]

    Bones,
    we need to stop preaching and start being Christ.

  15. The prophets were political. Fundies like to see the prophets as fortune tellers but the prophets were in essence the political conscience of Israel. They challenged Israel over human rights and corruption. They interpreted the political situation of the day. This differs from socalled Christian prophecy of God told me which Hillsong album to buy or God told me I’d like good on you (to some hot chick).

    Why were the prophets killed?

    Because they could see the future? Poppycock.

    The prophets were political.

    The kingdom of God is political not pie in the sky, wait till you die.

    Matthew 5
    13 “You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.

    14 “You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.

    Jesus got it wrong.

  16. or God told me I’d like good on you (to some hot chick).

    That should be:

    or God told me I’d look good on you (to some hot chick).

  17. Greg,
    How about you point it out for me?

    The tree that is the Christian Right all too frequently bears fruit of anger, hate and judgment. It produces some strange fruit. “The same strange fruit that white supremacists hung from the trees in the South. The same strange fruit that the Nazis baked in the ovens of Auschwitz. The same strange fruit that was diced and sliced with machetes in Rwanda. The same strange fruit that is left to rot to death in Africa because the cost of a cure may undercut someone’s bottom line. The same strange fruit that is pounded to death daily with rocks and bombs in the Middle East. The same strange fruit that are depressed to death because of homophobic bullying. Trees that bear these fruits, systems that bear these fruits are to be cut down and thrown into the fires – they are the chaff that God wills to burn in an “unquenchable fire,” where they will bear the fruit of domination no longer.”

  18. If you don’t think that load of nastiness is not divisive you have lost any respect I might have for your perspective.

  19. Your problem, Bones, and the problem with the article, is that it sees the words of Christ as a leftist manifesto.

    That is patently presumptuous and absolutely wrong.

    Jesus preached the Kingdom, not some left or right wing philosophy.

    You have merely hijacked the text to form your own political agenda.

    The prophets were both contemporary commentators and foretellers.

    They we not liberal democrats in some New England constituency or university.

  20. I can understand why the Religious Right can’t stand Muslims, Catholics and other religions. But why do they hate blacks, Asians, hispanics?

    I think it all comes down to the fear of those who are different.

  21. “Preach the gospel, and if necessary, use words.”

    widely miss attributed to St Francis of Assisi

    Really Greg. Next you’ll be telling me the Apostle John didn’t write Revelation and Moses didn’t write the Pentateuch. 😉

  22. They we not liberal democrats in some New England constituency or university.

    I don’t believe Dr Martin Luther King nor Desmond Tutu were in New England.

    Don’t even know if they are democrats.

    MLK was accused of being a communist because he was against the war in Vietnam. Tutu was accused as well because he was antiapartheid.

    “Blessed are the peacemakers for they will be called children of God”

  23. Is the kingdom of God in our midst? Is it at hand? Or is it yet to come?

    In Jesus’ time, the Jewish faith was expecting a Messiah to deliver the nation of Israel. Their image of the Messiah was that of a reigning king, similar to the Roman Emperor, but only more powerful. Therefore, when Jesus spoke of the kingdom of God, people listened. Jesus refers to the kingdom of God over 40 times in the Gospels, such that it is a major theme in His ministry. Jesus proclaims that we must receive His kingdom as children (Mk 10:15); that His kingdom belongs to the poor (Lk 6:20); that His kingdom is in our midst (Luke 17:20-21); and that His kingdom is not of this world (John 18:26). What is this kingdom of God and more importantly, when does it exist?

    Many contend that the kingdom of God will be in the future, after Jesus’ triumphant second coming. By postponing Jesus’ kingdom to the future, our image of the Messiah is not unlike that of the Jews in Jesus’ day, holding firm to a powerful, conquering leader, rather than that of a servant, representative of the cross. But the kingdom of God is not in the future it is at hand, says Jesus. It is today. “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand” Mark 1:15. Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.” Mark 9:1

    But if the kingdom of God is at hand and it started with Jesus, where is this kingdom? Can the kingdom of God be associated with any earthly kingdom, even one that associates its motto as “under God”? Although subtle, there are inferences in some circles that equate U.S. patriotism with the will of God, implying that today’s wars are battles between good and evil and that God is on our side. These ideas are dangerous, because they are contrary to the life and teachings of Jesus.

    The image of a conquering Messiah who would deliver the nation of Israel was false in Jesus’ time, just as it is false today. As people, it is natural for us to trust physical might as a means of deliverance and security needed to build the kingdom of God. Certainly, this is true of earthly kingdoms, but it is not true of God’s kingdom. Jesus’ life and example show otherwise. Jesus teaches us that the poor, persecuted, hungry, meek, and the least are the blessed!

    Jesus teaches that His kingdom is not for those who seek power, but those who are like children; His kingdom is not for the rich, but for the poor; His kingdom is not for the first, but for the least.

    As Christians, our obligation is to build the kingdom of God which is at hand today! As Christians, our obligation is to live the kingdom lifestyle that Jesus taught–a lifestyle that encompasses political, social, and economic aspects and cannot merely refer to a personal relationship with God. This kingdom will not be built by military force, but by faith–the faith of a mustard seed to move mountains. Christians must ask themselves how are we to build the kingdom of God and respond to evil. The answer is not through military might (Myth of the Redemptive Power of Violence) nor smart bombs, nor repaying evil for evil (Romans 12:17), but instead it is in our commitment to follow Jesus’ humility, compassion, love, and servanthood. It is to deny ourselves and carry our cross. In his book, War and Peace, Genesis to Revelation, Elles writes that Jesus’ entire ministry can be summarized in two words: FOLLOW ME! Jesus drafts us into His service to follow His example of humility to build the kingdom of God today.

    http://www.christiansforpeace.org/theo/kingdom.html

  24. Bones,
    I can understand why the Religious Right can’t stand Muslims, Catholics and other religions. But why do they hate blacks, Asians, hispanics? I think it all comes down to the fear of those who are different.

    What a stupid comment. Our movement touches five continents. We have leaders, congregants and attendees from all nationalities. Our local church has people from everywhere in one of the most cosmopolitan cities on earth. Our former church was 60% African, 20% Asian. We even had a few Australians in it, and it was in a capital city of Australia!

    If you are actually representative of the left, you show them up as really bigoted and naive.

  25. The African churches are far more fundamental than any in the West. Your entire premise is so flawed iris looking like a pathetic joke.

  26. I can only think that your entire political experience is based on US politics and US campus theology. I have never known a single church in any city or town I’ve lived in which fits your scathing accusation that non-leftist Christians hate anyone.

    You need to realise that the range if Christian experience covers far more than North Eastern US liberal theology and perceptions. What you and Greg are doing here is basing your entire worldview on a limited but vocal doctrinal stance which has nothing whatsoever to do with Jesus, Christianity or our mandate as believers, which is to love God and love our neighbour as ourselves, evangelise the whole world, preach the gospel, do good works, support justice and equity, and glorify God.

    What the author does is steal the mandate Jesus gave all believers and attempt to exclusively apply it to Christian leftist political theology.

    It’s naively is so obvious to anyone but liberals, but you think this rather divisive tack is the solution to your own ethical problem which, as Greg has already aptly demonstrated, rapes Scripture and leaves it slumped in a corner of his own shallow mind.

  27. What is missing here is a grasp of the vastness of the Body of Christ and the many facetted parts God sets, uses and promotes.

    When one group, though, starts claiming it has exclusive rights to everything Biblical and makes itself the model of consistency or standard by which all other parts must be measured, we have a problem.

    What if ministries such as the Andrews’ featured above was a finger, and Hillsong was a toe, or the Anglian Church was a foot, and the Baptists a blood vessel, etc., wouldn’t we have a unique Body made up of many arts, all different from each other, but functioning in exactly the way God chooses?

    So we might have some ministries or parts which are more into social justice issues, others into creativity and arts, others prophetic and utilising the gifts, some more at ease with the fruit, or with straight talking, others in mercy ministries, discerning, making inroads into the marketplace, or politics, or commerce, or charity work, teaching, training and education, supply, good works, comforting, building bridges, missionary enterprise, giving and liberality, setting examples for others to follow, employing people, providing jobs, financing the poor, working in and with the media, publishing, creating work or resource related opportunities, and a plethora of other things the Body can and surely does cover.

    But here we have a group, which makes itself an exclusive club, blowing its own trumpet, proclaiming another group, supposedly part of the same Body, to be evil and wicked, simply because it has a different purpose in the Body.

    No, I do not think the writer’s definition of the way the so called right side of Christianity operates, thinks or reforms is accurate at all. In fact, it is a wicked and divisive piece of contrived rubbish fit only to be burned up with the rest of the chaff which will go up in smoke.

    This post is a nasty piece of misleading and spiteful invective.

  28. When one group, though, starts claiming it has exclusive rights to everything Biblical and makes itself the model of consistency or standard by which all other parts must be measured, we have a problem.

    I totally agree with you in this Steve. However I have discussions with people in the ‘reformed’ camp who, when I point out that they claim to be right and others wrong, come back with “no, we’re just biblical”, as if all others are entitled to what they want to believe but they aren’t as biblical as them!

    The left, and this article, is I think a pendulum swing response to being told we aren’t right and aren’t biblical at nearly every point in the road.

    I like and agree with your comment about the body; toes fingers etc, however, I ask you could not the same be said of theology and not just style? Catholics are one part of the body of Christ, liberals another, reformed another, Pentecostals another…etc.

  29. Good Lord, where does one start? This treatise is so inaccurate and naive, beginning with stating that it was the rich and powerful folks who offed Jesus, when many wealthy people followed Him and supported Him, one even buying him a tomb fit for a King.

    IT was GOD who put Jesus on the Cross, no one else but GOD. G-O-D

    If you don’t understand sacrifice, you will be a rescuer or a persecutor looking for victims – left and right, rescuers and persecutors, good and evil, right and wrong etc.

    Jesus said very plainly that we cannot serve two masters – we will either seek the true riches of the kingdom or the material wealth of this world. He gifts and enables us to do His works of righteousness – yes it is by grace, and grace in turn enables the works of righteousness. That is simple.

    The kingdom does not come by the observation of the Law, but by faith. Jesus is the King and He is the kingdom. He said I got to prepare a place for you so that where I Am, you may be also.

    Are you where He is at? Is there really a left and right. God has two hands in us – the left represents healing, the right is authority. We need people with two hands, not two different minds controlling two different hands like some bizarre co-joined sibling construct.

    The Left/Right political paradigm is fundamentally Nazism and Zionism – National and International Socialism. To even speak of an Xian Socialism is just silliness gone to seed. Either we work for God doing the works of righteousness, or you work for the wealth of this world. If we do nothing except that we see the Father do it first, then we will never work in vain, IF. Irrespective of whether we ascribe to the left or the right, both are intrinsically wrong and involve the highjacking of scripture to support and defend the position people have assumed.

    But my Bible tells me that I am seated from the RIGHT HAND OF MAJESTY ON HIGH – the expression of my life, which is Christ, is found in the authority of the same, at his right Hand, and if that is where I am established and founded, then my left hand will heal and my right is to both declare and show forth the majesty of the Lord and do the works of righteousness by the faith in Christ Jesus, which is my faith and my victory over the world.

    The Sword Jesus brings cleaves Spirit and flesh in the circumcision of the heart. And just for all you lefties, I will let Jesus have the last say. Please note vs 33 of this text from Matthew 25.

    31. “But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all his holy angels with him, then he shall sit on the throne of his glory.
    32. “And there will gather before him all the nations, and he will choose them one by one, like the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
    33. “And he sets the sheep from his right and the goats from his left.
    34. “That is when the King says to those from his right, ‘Come, blessed of my Father, inherit the Kingdom that was destined for you from the foundations of the universe.
    35. ” ‘For I was hungry and you gave me to eat. I was thirsty and you gave me to drink. I was an outcast and you took me in.
    36. ” ‘I was naked and you clothed me. I was ill and you visited me. I was in prison and you came to me. ‘
    37. “Then the saintly will say to him, ‘Our Lord, when did we see you hungry and we fed you, or you were thirsty and we gave you drink?
    38. ” ‘And when did we see you an outcast and we took you in, or when were you naked and we clothed you?
    39. ” ‘And when did we see you ill or in prison and we came to you?’
    40. “And the King replied and told them, ‘Amen, I am telling you, that whatever you do for one of these my little brethren, for me you have done that.’
    41. “Then he will say also to those on his left, ‘Go away from me you accursed to eternal fire, that is set for the Devil and his angels.
    42. ” ‘For I was hungry and you did not give me to eat. I was thirsty and you did not give me to drink.
    43. ” ‘I was an outcast and you did not take me in. And I was naked and you did not cloth me. And I was ill and in prison and you did not visit me.’
    44. “Then they too shall reply and say, ‘Our Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or an outcast or naked or ill or in prison, and we did not serve you?’
    45. “Then he will reply and say to them, ‘Amen, I am telling you, that whatever you did not do for one of these little ones, neither did you do it for me.’
    46. “And they will go these to eternal torment and the saintly to eternal life.”

    Now please not that the DOERS OF THE WORKS did so UNCONSCIOUSLY – it was by their inward nature and they treated all as they would Jesus.

    ‘Amen, I am telling you, that whatever you do for one of these my little brethren, for me you have done that.’ Note that what we do or do not do, Jesus takes is very personally, as if it were He that you were despising or aiding. But don’t you just love verse 33? Sort of kicks all that crap about left and right streams of Christianity and Christian Socialism into touch and out of the game, yes?

    Left Right Left Right Left Right – STOP! About FACE! At ease……

    Its not a bloody army, it is a blood bought body of believers and B(abylon) leavers!

  30. Sorry, at the risk of repeating Jesus…

    33. “And he sets the sheep from his right and the goats from his left.
    33. “And he sets the sheep from his right and the goats from his left.
    33. “And he sets the sheep from his right and the goats from his left.
    33. “And he sets the sheep from his right and the goats from his left.

    One more time? LOL. Why does He set the goats from His left?

    Healing – except it involves some purifying fire, as in wood, hay, stubble….

    Those who yield their life to righteousness and UNCONSCIOUSLY do the works of righteousness are under his authority, they are BY His Right Hand. Those who are hateful, divisive, rebellious against God, and who have respect of persons, aka partiality and preference to persons, are in need of healing and so are on the LEFT.

    Our God is an ALL CONSUMING FIRE!

  31. IT was GOD who put Jesus on the Cross, no one else but GOD. G-O-D

    That has to be the most horrendous blasphemy I’ve ever read…and I’m partial to a touch of blasphemy, but that’s too much.

    God knew it would happen, God used it, but God did not cause it to happen.

    Good grief man…what kind of God is that, who will offer his only son and kill him himself?

  32. Steve, the Body of Christ is not the Church anymore than the shadow is the reality, any more than New Jerusalem is Old Jerusalem. It bears more resemblance to the world and to other religions like Hinduism and Judaism than to Christ. But just as in Babylon the believers flourished, so too in modern Babylon we are to be in it but not of it.

    The Body of Christ is forever in the heavens, and is not made with hands, don’t you know that your BODY is the TEMPLE OF GOD? New Jerusalem is YOUR BODY. The Church is like the physical body, and is about as much trouble. But we do fulfill a function here just as the righteous Jews did in Babylon.

    I asked once what my role was in the earthly body and I saw a white corpuscle surround a virus and consuming it to kill it. Unfortunately, a COR-PUS-CLE’s lot is to end up becoming pus and squeezed out by the healed…it dies for the health of the body yet it instantly recognizes and deals with threats, even at the expense of its own existence, for it has no inclination except to serve and save the Body…

  33. Greg, you need to learn to read. For it pleased God to offer up His own Son, one sacrifice for all. He told Abraham to stay his hand, for “I WILL PROVIDE MYSELF A SACRIFICE!” He provided HIMSELF (as) a sacrifice – He put HIMSELF ON THE CROSS. IT WAS GOD MADE FLESH WHO WAS SACRIFICED, and this says a lot to me about who God is, that He would sacrifice HIMSELF for ALL.

    About 12yrs ago, I was writing a piece about our hands being the hands of God – the hands he so often uses to get His works done in the earth. By inspiration, I held my hand up and considered it, and I felt as it were the power and presence of God in my limb and I saw power,virtue enter my am and in my hand there was something like a dumpy hammer, and then my hand began to come down as if controlled by another and I saw before me a man lying strapped to a cross, and He looked at me, His eyes full of compassion, as if telling me it was OK and to do what i must and with my body wracked with sobbing and my hand not mine to control the hammer came down and struck the nail which my left held, and I felt as if I died inside…

    It was God who put God on the Cross – is that not simple enough to understand? I asked Him once “Why you, why did it have to be you and why this way?” He said, “It had to be Me, CREATION IS MY RESPONSIBILITY, only I could do it.”

    This is why it is futile pointing the finger or the bone over who killed Jesus – God did it – if you want to blame anyone, blame God, He can take it, in fact he took ALL THE BLAME on Himself and destroyed the not which was against us. God does not hold in debt anyone – He is a debt releaser – it is people who imprison themselves and others to debt through unforgiveness.

    I remember an Xian telling me how it would have all been different if they had not crucified Jesus – are we really that thick that we even think such things? He was a Man of Sorrows, and acquainted with grief.

  34. Know ye not that you body is the temple of God. What BODY is Paul talking about here? The physical body or the Body of Christ? Later in chapter 6 he is very clearly speaking of the Body of believers, so it would appear it is both. But wait, there is more, there is a depth to this that is lost to the carnal mind.

    One of God’s neatest tricks is the way he can say things from two reflective perspectives, such as the gospel is the Power and the Power is the gospel, or your body is the temple of God and the temple of God is your Body. The carnal mind reads that the GOSPEL is the power of God but the TRUTH is that the POWER OF GOD (JESUS) is the good news.

    The carnal mind reads that your body is the temple of God, and yes, in a sense it is. The higher Truth is that the Temple of God is your Body! As in Old Jerusalem and new Jerusalem, one is from beneath, one is from above. But here is a thought for you Greg, if we are to become as one, BODY, MIND AND SOUL, and then we die, are we then only mind and soul? If so, how might we be made ONE?

    Clearly the Body He is talking about is also eternal, that which is raised incorruptible. If you but knew it, what you call your body is an apartment attached to God’s Temple and when you get sick of it you may enter in through the rent veil of the flesh. But for the most part we prefer our apartments, just like the priests did when the prophet peaked though the hole in the wall. Where do you think the prophet was? He was with God while the Priests were in there apartments, apart from God but still wanting to be seen to serve Him and to have the benefits.

    But do we bring our works into the light to be seen that by God they are made? Nah, we shrink into or apartments and turn on the Tellie, or crank up the computer and turn on our fellows….

  35. Greg,

    30. Because we are members of His body and of His flesh and of His bones.

    Is this referring to our physical body, or is the physical body itself a living metaphor of the Spiritual Body of Christ? When you leave this earth, does our physical body go with us or return to the dust? So which Body is the Temple of God already? This earthly tabernacle is knackered eventually and the tent is rent but you are not diminished, simply released.

    Is Paul talking about the Worldwide Church or the Body of Christ? Even the word Church itself derives from Circe, and is synonymous (sin-ominous?) with Circus and Circle.

    To put it yet another way, are you seated from the right of Majesty on High or are you living in the earth?

    I saw my hands become members of God and swing the hammer that nailed Jesus – does that count as being part of God’s Body in your reality? But now I am asking you to really expand your thinking – how could the guy who nailed Jesus be part of the Body of Christ, let alone saved?

    Someone recently told me that certain people are psychopaths having no (apparent) conscience. This led me to a man who claimed that psychopaths are not real people but a breed apart who are incapable of salvation – which sounds like something only a psychopath would say.

    They are all God’s vessels – but those who are actively submitted to God as vessels are as His vessels to honor.

    I asked Jesus once “How many cells (Parts) make up your Body?”

    I heard, “Google how many cells in a human body”.

    There are estimated to be between 50 and 100 trillion cells in a human body, depending upon mass, of which as much as 33% may be bacterium. Hmm, on second thoughts Greg, that sounds just like Church. This is also to do with why we are NOT to know ANY after the flesh, for all flesh is as Grass, but the Body of the Lord is forever, which Body you are members of.

    But seriously, our physical body is a whole community, including heaps of bacterium and each cell is itself a community, as anyone who has even a basic knowledge of cellular biology will attest. The organization of the human body is a reflection of the Universe itself and why we live in communities, and how we came up with the internet.

    Yes God is in there with you, ergo your body is the temple of God, but which body? When you step out of your body, which body do you inhabit? The incorruptible or the corruptible? Are you getting this? Does God stay behind with the worms or leave with you? Do you ever stop to really question what you have been taught and why?

    As for the word Church deriving from Kuriakos (as in the house of the Lord or ha Baal), this is a bit of a whizz really. Isaiah said that we should come to know Him no longer as Lord but as husband – and for this cause a man shall cleave to his wife and become as one flesh, but this is a mystery, speaking of Christ and His Assembly, His Congregation. Do you know Him as Baal or Husband?

    The Kuriakos is not the Ekklesia – in fact the word does not even occur in the Greek NT, like crucify, cross or crucifixion – work that one out you theo-log-ians! Church comes from Circe – Webster even said so!

  36. Who is this woman Circe? She is also known a Artemis, Diana, Oestre, Lilith, Jezebel, Babylon, Columbia, Liberty…yes Liberty and Columbia are satanic goddesses…which is why they will fall. Now where the SPIRIT of the LORD is, there is LIBERTY – you mean the devil stole from God and then used that to fool the people of God? Of course, why change a winning formula? Statue of Liberty indeed. Now Liberty is a bit to much like Liberal and Liberalism and Libation.

    By the way, a little digression, but someone pointed out to me recently that in 1830, the Mormons were kicked out of NY, so Joseph Smith prophesied that on September 11th, 1830, the Lord would destroy New York City. On the same date, in 1858, Mormons dressed as Indians (false flagging it) slaughtered 140 settlers who were on their way to California, and stole 17 very young children as slaves.

    Mormons like Carl Rove and closet Mormon Dick Cheney and a host of others infested the Bush administration, and as anyone who knows about these things knows, the real cog in the big wheel is the Vice-President (He is in charge of all the VICE).

    Tell me Greg, do you think that the Mormons are part of the Lord’s Body? Which is the thumb and which be the bum? Which do you classify as being Church and which as Church Cults? Where do you draw the line? To me most creeds of most churches make me cringe, but the kingdom cannot be shaken.

    Or as the Holy Spirit said to me, “If you preach hell, then are you not hell’s preachers?” We are to proclaim the kingdom and confirm it with signs and wonders. As to building the kingdom of God on earth, I am still looking for where it actually says this in the Book, but it does say, I will establish MY CONGREGATION and the gates (authority and wisdom) of Sheol shall NOT prevail against it – shall not prevent it.

    But if Satan may appear as to be a messenger of light, then do not think it strange that his ministers also appear as to be ministers of righteousness. Most Xians run a mile from such scriptures as they do their heads in and they would rather not think about it, that what they call Church is in fact the problem, and not the answer, and is a counterfeit of the real Body of Christ, and not even a shadow.

    Oh foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you? Paul warned nearly 2000yrs ago that evil men and seducers would come in – and they did – and they have not left – and this is why “they” are attacking the last vestiges of true Christianity in Syria and the other places where the Orthodox Church of the East operate. The Western Church (WC) has basically got it so wrong it beggars belief and they mainly preach and teach dung and mixture and leavening and tares – I know – I used to go there and even parroted what I was told – but then began the de-programming from the cults I was involved with, such as WOF. Yet I know God talks to and through them at times – hey, Jesus confronted the Satan in Peter but still used him to spread the good news. So I guess they must be of His Body too?

    In the end there will be a One World Church and a “Won from the World” Congregation.

  37. Ian, the Church is the Body.

    Col 1:18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
    Col 1:24 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church…

    Please leave it there, because i’m not interested in a detour into your unfathomable world of illogical conspiracies.

  38. Greg, the Body of Christ is the Temple, and our own body is the Temple. Both are given in scripture.

    1Co 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?

    2Co 6:16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will dwell in them And walk among them. I will be their God, And they shall be My people.”

  39. Greg,
    Catholics are one part of the body of Christ, liberals another, reformed another, Pentecostals another…etc.

    Reformed are, I agree, hardline, but hardly right wing necessarily. That is where your argument falls down. They are straight down the line Bible believing religionists, but have made a serious mess of doctrine in many areas.

    Catholics and liberals form a broad spectrum. Some Catholics are more Biblical than others. Some are downright pagan. Some liberals would find the article in the post far to right wing.

  40. You’re a Christian, Right? No, I’m a Christian … Left

    by Keith Miller (Producer of the movie Hellbound? Is there really a hell)

    A few weeks ago during his talk at the Wild Goose Festival, Sojourners founder Jim Wallis made an important point that is easily forgotten in the heat of the culture wars: The terms “right” and “left” are political categories, not religious categories. And whenever we try to cram our faith into one or the other, we wind up distorting not only our religion but our politics as well.

    Observe the current American presidential race, for example. Do you see the distorted religion and politics of which Wallis speaks? Are political leaders educating the public on this problem, or, more likely, do they simply exploit the pretzel twisting to their advantage?

    Years ago I heard Tony Campolo describe how he responds to questions about whether he is conservative or liberal. His reply is always the same: “Name the issue!” Tony isn’t being cagey. He is actually responding to the question-behind-the-question, which is, “Are you one of us or one of them?”

    Tony also recognizes that “conservative” and “liberal” are subjective terms. What’s conservative to one person is liberal to another and vice versa. So rather than allow someone to label and dismiss him, Tony prefers to keep his options open so the conversation can continue.

    I would take things one step further and argue that discrete categories like “liberal” and “conservative” don’t actually exist. When it comes to defining your position re: a certain issue, it’s more accurate to think in terms of spectrums. No one is outright conservative or outright liberal. We all live somewhere between these two poles.

    But even this perspective can be limiting, because it’s one-dimensional; it fails to recognize the complexity of belief. So perhaps we should talk about intersecting spectrums (political, religious, philosophical, moral), because each one influences the other. But even this view fails to capture the dynamic nature of belief, because rarely do we set up permanent camp in one spot on any spectrum. Rather, we vacillate within a given range across multiple spectrums, and sometimes we break camp altogether. So perhaps the most accurate way to define our beliefs is in terms of changing trajectories across multiple spectrums.

    Does your head hurt yet?

    Such issues have been on my mind lately, because at the Wild Goose Festival I also connected with Charles Toy of the Christian Left. He took home a “Hellbound?” screener and then endorsed the film on the group’s Facebook page. He went one step further and asked if we would put their logo on our web site as a sponsor of the film.

    I have to admit his request gave me pause. I’ve spent most of my life among evangelical Christians. Many of them are on the progressive end of the spectrum, but they would hardly be described as on the left. For me, “left” has always meant “liberal.” And a “liberal” is someone who isn’t seeking to merely reinterpret the tradition, he or she wants to throw it out altogether. And that certainly does not describe me or “Hellbound?” Did I really want such people laying claim to the film? Wouldn’t that make people on the right reject it out of hand?

    So I did a bit more investigating. Here is a brief excerpt from the Christian Left’s web site:

    Looking at the life of Jesus we see that Jesus made room for those cut off from the rest of society. Jesus put a name and a face on all who had been forgotten or pushed aside, even the dead. Jesus called us to carry our cross daily and follow him. … “The Christian Left” — left hate behind; left prejudice; left callous attitudes; and followed Jesus as HE left the 99 in the fold, to go find the ones who were lost, ignored, excluded, overlooked, abandoned, uncared-for — all “the least of these.” We left hard-heartedness in order to be like the Samaritan who stopped to care for those in need.

    Surprisingly, this group isn’t necessarily comprised of Christians on the left wing of the political spectrum. They are merely seeking to leave behind a form of Christianity that has departed from the faith Christ founded. In that sense, you could say they are a staunchly conservative group. They would probably argue that right wing Christians are the true liberals, because they are the ones who have broken from tradition. In fact, they do just that:

    Unfortunately in this country today, we have a sort of spiritual revival of the Pharisees — people who don’t want to practice love, grace, or compassion, but would rather try to bury people under legalistic demands that they themselves aren’t capable of keeping. Culturally crusading right-wing Christians have substituted the Gospel of Jesus Christ for a Gospel of Morality. They’ve made it more about following rules than loving God … and loving their fellow brothers and sisters. This is unacceptable.

    See how quickly our discrete religious/political categories break down? Another excerpt:
    Love God and love people. Forgive people over and over again, as you have been forgiven by God over and over again. Show mercy, as you have been shown mercy by God. Help the weak, the sick, the depressed, the poor, the jailed, the oppressed, the marginalized, the outcast — for one day you could be weak, sick, depressed, poor, jailed, oppressed, marginalized, outcast. It is also the only reasonable response to God’s overwhelming grace — sharing the same grace with the world.

    This doesn’t sound partisan at all. Instead, it seems to redraw the lines entirely. Instead of right vs. left, conservative vs. liberal, it’s not vs. anyone at all. Rather, it’s for something — a more charitable and just society. Who doesn’t want that?

    So perhaps I shouldn’t be too concerned if people want to cram “Hellbound?” into a left wing box. If that simply means the movie is working to transcend not only hatred and injustice but also a language of engagement that seems hell-bent on maintaining the status quo, then count me in.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kevin-miller/christian-right-and-left_b_1725739.html

  41. The self-named ‘left’ tends to use extremes to describe what it has termed the ‘right’, when, in reality, we have one Lord, one Spirit, one baptism, one God and Father of all. There is no ‘us and them’, except in the political headshot those who use division as a weapon.

    Where Jesus says the Good Shepherd leaves the 99 to retrieve the lost sheep, he is not saying that the shepherd then remains in the company of the lost sheep to the exclusion of the 99. That is the terrible misconception put out in the last comment. The truth is that the shepherd leaves the 99, yes, and go to locate the lost sheep, yes, but to bring the lost sheep back to the 99 to make 100.

    The way the article explains it you would think that the shepherd leaves the 99 because he has rejected them and seeks to join the lost sheep because he prefers the company of the lost. That is ludicrous thinking. But it is how scripture can be misrepresented by those with an alternative agenda to truth.

    Tony Campolo is right, though, there is not supposed to be a divide between Christians. We are all sons and daughters of the Almighty, the very same Father, in the very same Household of faith, brothers and sisters under Christ.

  42. Steve seems to be very indignant at this article and sees it as an attack on himself. He even says that it is an attack on the Body of Christ.

    If it was an article by a right wing fundamentalist attacking liberal left wing Christians as unbiblical, I wonder if he would be as offended or if he would be cheering them on.

  43. No, Bones, the attack is made in the article. It calls what it terms ‘right-wing Christians’ Pharisees. Up until this point I could go along with what was being said. The same with Greg’s original post. Up until the point where the writer declares that there are right wing Christians compatible to Hitler, Pol Pot and the like I could go along with the general idea of what Christianity is, but he had to make a divide between a suppose left and right.

    The problem is in the false comparison. I do to the there is, Biblically, either a left or a right, or a liberal or a conservative Christianity. It is you and Greg who make that assertion.

  44. Guys, perhaps i should have explained myself better. Now where does God dwell in us? In the Holy of Holy right? In the innermost of the inner man, the Tree of Life in the midst of the garden. He is our Life.

    Now we have a Spiritual body and a natural body. The INCORRUPTIBLE Spiritual body is SOWN in the corruptible natural body, but is raised in the INCORRUPTION of the resurrection Life of Jesus Christ.

    Know you not that you must be born from above, where else could you have come from? 0(:->)

    Yes OUR BODY IS THE TEMPLE OF GOD and that goes both ways, but it is our SPIRITUAL BODY which is the temple, our earthly is simply a tabernacle in the wilderness, a type of the heavenly reality which is beyond the Door, which is Jesus.

    And he has broken down the middle wall of partition such that we may gone in and come out – hey, does that mean we COME OUT as a follower of Jesus? LOL.

    Your are sown in corruption and raised in in-corruption – even as the incorruptible seed of God.

    You see it is either you were born of your parents and given a crack at being “saved” and Fathered by God, or you go to hell, OR, you came down from the Father of Lights, and were sown as incorruptible seed in a corruptible flesh and bone body and activated and then drawn to God as he nurtures you and teaches you how to love as he does, perfectly, and the graduation from this university of Life is narrow and hard and few find it, and the many enter in by destruction. I like the second version – it is how God told me that it really is. Prove me wrong if you will, or can. We are all of us prodigals in our own way and time and the Love of God is calling us back home, but most important of all is to learn to love.

    Don’t want to be no goat and be flambeed in the furnace – i want to be at his Right Hand.

    And Greg, I am making a lot more sense than you are hearing, and Steve, i know the simple basics of scripture, but i know too many of the misapprehensions and the twisting thereof too.

    The way I found out about our Spiritual body being the real three in one being, body, spirit or soul, and mind, is thus. I heard one day back when to take my Bible and draw a bath. Lying naked before the Lord in a bath is a good starting point. Not how often God gives us revelations in the bathroom? Think he is telling us something?

    Anyway, I lay back and put my hands behind me like in surrender, and immediately the Lord appeared to me and said “Come with Me…walk in My footsteps” and I felt compelled to follow as he turned and began to walk, and at that moment my right and my left hand came free as if from a Cross of my own judgments, and my mind and my body and my soul became as one and i began to leave my flesh and to follow the Lord. In a moment of time and in a revelation, a vision, yet not imagined but real, He showed me the minefield of my own judgments – how i had contradicted the holy Spirit, the Creator, and denied Him, and so had set up self sabotage mechanisms, my own judgment landmines to blindly blunder into whenever i lost sight of the Light of my salvation.

    He showed me how I should walk in HIS steps, in Him, IN THE SPIRIT(UAL BODY) that HE IS – THE LIFE – MY LIFE. He is the LIFE GIVING SPIRIT. Yes?

    Yes, your BODY is the TEMPLE OF GOD, and THE TEMPLE OF GOD IS YOUR BODY!

    Your real body, not this carnal canvas construct that will return to the dust.

    DO YOU GET IT NOW? Ask Jesus, I am only parroting what He said to me.

    And not some preacher! 0(:->)

    How can God co-exist in so many places and people at once? And you are made in His image? Think about it, it will make your brain hurt…LOL…but your Spirit leap…LOL…

  45. The problem is in the false comparison. I do not think that there is, Biblically, either a left or a right, or a liberal or a conservative Christianity. It is you and Greg who make that assertion.

  46. oops, there’s a lot to be said for proof reading, especially this late at night, but the cricket has been good…

  47. NZ giving England a softening up for the Aussies – great stuff – at the home of the Mason’s game of Cricket, Lords.

    The Belgian legacy; Cricket, Beer and child abuse (worst in the world) and Opium poppies for the remembrance of sacrifice. Oh well…

  48. The problem is in the false comparison. I do not think that there is, Biblically, either a left or a right, or a liberal or a conservative Christianity. It is you and Greg who make that assertion.

    So I take it you won’t be moaning about liberals and how unbiblical they are? No more articles attacking say, Rowan Williams?

    It is fundamentally divisive and manipulative’.

    Oh no. Naughty Left. The Right would never use threats of intimidation, rejection, damnation and hell against other Christians would they. Oh wait a minute…. What did John Piper text to Rob Bell “Farewell Rob Bell”. Because he wrote a book he didn’t like.

    See those on the Right like to give it but can’t take it.

  49. Oh, you mean the Reformist John Piper! I think I already mentioned the Reformists as hardline. Just take Margot and Zorro as examples. Unmoving, unflinching, unforgiving.

    But neither as hardline as you. You make them look like pussy cats. Claws and all.

    I don’t think you liberal lefty types give your victims any choice but to refute your nonsense claims, so I’ll maintain a defence of the gospel and contend for the faith as long as you make a stand for deconstructing Scripture and demonising men and women of faith.

    But you personally, as a living human being? I wish you nothing but the love of God and the blessing of the Holy Spirit.

  50. By the way, if Rowan Williams wants to parade himself as an honorary druid he asks for every criticism he gets. But not because he’s left or right. Simply because he’s not representative of his own communion.

    But why do you complain, since you openly parade as a lefty liberal, and, accordingly, you’ll cop it as such because, taking sides, that’s your own claim, which is testimony to your own diminished level of understanding.

    Well, so be it. Just as the writer of the article who imprudently and childishly claims a factional schismatic association called, unscripturally, the Christian left, and, indulging in a critical party spirit, opens himself to rebuke. So you, claiming the same indulgence, tag yourself and make yourself equally immature and worthy of reproof.

    I’ve never claimed to be right or left. You level those tags, and it is the thing people of your self-contrived ‘side’ do. Just as Wesley never called himself anything but a Church of England minister, yet was called a methodist by others, so you consider yourself liberal and of the left, and, by default, label others, therefore, conservative and of the right.

    Why is this? Because you are deeply ensconced in a party spirit which requires a sense-driven worldview, a science dependent philosophical cause to make up for its distrust of Scripture, and a political bias to advance its hyper-liberal ideas. Hyper-liberal because some aspects of a liberal approach have merit, but you take it further than its origins into a sometimes open but mostly covert denouncement of Biblical authenticity.

    And you are, like many of your ilk, verbally if not physically militant in your approach, and , along the way, you have relabelled anyone you consider an enemy in derogatory terms.

    I’ve argued for a form of fundamentalism which calls the canon of scripture the basis for godly living, but no more, no less, even acknowledging that the meaning of the word ‘fundamental’ has been somewhat shifted to mean something far more militant and aggressive, but declaring that I do not hold to a violent approach to a fundamental belief in Scripture.

    But you use the word ‘fundamental’ in the negative sense, even though it is not attributable to me nor anyone I know in Christian circles. You use it as a derogatory term, a weapon aimed to paint-ball your targets.

    I am a believer. That is all. I am a follower of Christ. Plain and simple. This means I am bound to walk in love with all people regardless of the background or beliefs, but seek to influence them with the gospel of Christ. If I do not love all people I deny Christ. God help me if I ever do this.

    My politics are centrist. I am not of the right or of the left. I trust God and take Him at His Word. Most of the people I know and associate with are the same or similar, but they may, in an election, vote either way, or in social opinion, be closer to your view point or mine.

    Your unkind opinion of people who are not as liberal or left centric as you denies Christ absolutely. labelling me in any way other than as a follower of Christ is a misrepresentation of who I am in Christ and what I believe and live for.

  51. Years ago I asked Jesus about the highway of holiness (Isaiah 36) – I saw as it were a road, one road going in one direction from the commencement to the fulfillment of life – i saw a white line down the middle and heard that the left verge led to Liberalism and the Right to Legalism. I was reminded of a scene i had witnessed in my early 20’s where God had told me to never forget it as one day i would understand. The scene was of a line of cars in a very heavy smog, at night, following a Landrover equipped with fog-lights, wending its way at a snail’s pace, going from verge to verge as a reference point because they could not see where the middle of the road was. It was like watching a snake.

    This is like life’s highway – and fog (unbelief) bound people follow any shepherd who seems better equipped than they and wend from gutter to gutter like a snake. At about this time I was heading from Brisbane to Noosa, and wandered onto the buzz strip on the side of the Highway – I heard “This is the confinement of the Law, it is to warn you that you are verging toward the ditch (and life’s a bitch, when you livin’ in the ditch!). A ditch is like a grave with no ends.

    I heard of a man who had encountered these buzz strips and thought something must be wrong with his car, so he drove most of the way up that highway doing 30mph and half off the road! So much for senses and common sense.

    The point is that we are all on the same road heading the same way, and the only reason why we veer from right to left is that we are being led on a fog-bound, serpentine path instead of being in the middle of the (One Way) road following the white line clearly delineated by the Holy Spirit our inner guide and shepherd, our True Teacher.

    But we are all sown in corruption and raised in in-corruption. we all tread the same path, one path, home, but there are many stops along the way and many distractions and diversions, but He is the Ox and the Mark, He is where you are headed and it is He who is getting you there.

    It is my gospel which makes sense, yours simply excludes the greater part of Mankind to the pit ‘cos they have not heard yours yet, but the Truth of Christ is writ large upon the hearts of Man, but in most it is overlaid by a stony heart of the Law. This is why so-called Xians can stand back and watch a Fascist Govt slaughter innocent Syriac Christians with impunity, hiding behind the misapplication of Romans 13 and giving their authority to the Beast and all the while thinking that they do God a service by delivering others up to death. It is beyond disgusting – it is insanity.

    What amazes me is that people in this forum question my sanity yet stay silent while their leaders are doing the most abominable things and have not even the wit nor wisdom to see through things like Agenda 21 (aka, How to annihilate much of the world’s population and turn the rest into slaves in a collective hive modern Babylon).

    By the way, if you have money out to usury, or you live by usury or work for usurers, ask God to set you free from this abominable practice. Compound interest is a kingdom counterfeit – only the blind, ignorant or overtly evil engage in such practices or put their money out to usury. If you are in debt then ask God for a strategy to get out, even a miracle if necessary – if you are still in debt by 2015 you will lose everything, but then we are all going to be in the same boat, or in the same Ark…

    As my friend Willem Bellaard from Queensland says, “Its all about worshiping Mammon and the practice of usury. I would qualify that by saying it is all about whether we hold others to account or we release them, and consider ourselves, lest we also be tempted. Jesus said to make friends and be found faithful with unrighteous Mammon – in other words use the money God gives you to bless and to provide and for the works of righteousness. Sow into lives sown in corruption.

    You are sown in corruption, raised in in-corruption. Your incorruptible eternal Spirit which is The Christ (it is no longer you which lives) and which lives within your corruptible husk or outer man. The outer man is the tree of knowledge of good and evil, of left and right, or liberalism or legalism, but the Way to the Tree of Life is guarded by a messenger with a sword whose function is to circumcise your flesh and set you free from it.

    Press on toward the MARK!

  52. Just popped in to say that after reading these posts over the last few weeks it was a good decision to leave.
    Basically Steve says everything I’d say. Bless you Steve. You avoid hysterics, and extreme positions and just humbly present the Word of God in your answers. A man for all seasons fighting the good fight of faith.
    And Ian, you sure keep this place interesting.

  53. ‘Headshot’? iPad automatic spelling is not always helpful! ‘Heads of’.

    Lol. I thought that was a great way to describe American politics!

    Autocorrect comes up with the best words at times!

    I misspelt kiss once and it came up with Lips!

  54. If it was an article by a right wing fundamentalist attacking liberal left wing Christians as unbiblical, I wonder if he would be as offended or if he would be cheering them on.

    Yes, I was noticing the irony of Steve saying some of the same things we have said in defense of ourselves at times…unity, different parts of the one body.

  55. I could go along with the general idea of what Christianity is, but he had to make a divide between a suppose left and right.

    Steve, there have been many, not you, but many on this site who have questioned if bones and I were even a part of the body of Christ…there are different ‘realms’ it seems…just like suni and Shia Muslims, in this article it is just described as left and right…in the same frame as politics…conservative and liberal. Conservatives tend to think liberals are ruining the whole of Christianity (and politics) and liberals have allowed the conservative realm to portray themselves as being the ‘right’ brand of Christianity for far too long!

  56. The problem is in the false comparison. I do not think that there is, Biblically, either a left or a right, or a liberal or a conservative Christianity. It is you and Greg who make that assertion.

    I totally agree…however it is not just bones and I…you have lumped us in with those ‘liberal types’ and portrayed yourself as being the defender of ‘biblica’l Christianity, thereby propagating the self same divide you claim not to believe in.

  57. so you consider yourself liberal

    Neither bones nor I have ever called ourselves anything but Christian…we have been labeled liberals and lefties by all and sundry, including you Steve.

    To paraphrase the elephant man: I am not a liberal. I am a Christian!

  58. But what is it that unifies Christians? is it a secular approach to life or a godly approach?

    Being different parts of one Body doesn’t mean we can diminish Scripture or ignore God’s instructions to the Church or throw out, with so much of the vitality of the Commission, His mission, mandate and means of accomplishing it.

    We are given the great privilege of becoming sons and daughters of the Almighty when we receive Christ, but we also become part of the family of God which is the custodian of the Household of God in the earth, including everything He has related to us through the Word and Spirit.

    Therefore we need to be engaged in an accurate and dedicated approach, understanding and application of all He says to the Church in the New Testament.

    If, as is the case with many so-called liberal theologians, the Word of God is manipulated in the name of logically forced inclusion of minorities, or deconstructed as a matter of convenience to eliminate difficult passages, or diminished to save them from having to believe seemingly impossible things even though they are attributed to God, then we have run into a compromise too far and we cannot consider those eliminated truths to be part of the necessary functions of the Body.

    This applies not only to liberals, but also to literalists who determine the scripture to exclude certain individuals on the basis of wrongly applied doctrine, so I am not singling out liberal ideology.

    There are vastly attended groups with long post crucifixion histories, which have so polluted the Word of God that it is clear they have left their first love and the Spirit behind in their own determination to maintain well established errors, which they even build upon to such an extent that they have long forgotten that it was the Bible and the texts which were handed down to us not their humanly flawed traditions.

    What unifies us is faith in Christ. But to be part of the Body we need to be in Christ until He comes, and this means we need to be growing up in Him, not in worldly logic, or in human traditions, or legalistic frameworks, not tossed to an fro by every wind of doctrine, nor led into vain philosophies, but fixed and established on the Word and Spirit.

  59. No, no, Greg. Bones associated himself with being a liberal and of the left, and boasted on their virtues whilst attacking the right.

    You published a post which is clearly challenging the right from a left perspective. You even defended its wicked comparisons wit Hitler and Pol Pot.

    You titled it ‘An Open Letter from the Christian Left to the Christian Right’.

    Don’t, then, blame me for taking the position that you and Bones have declared yourselves of the left and in agreement with the articles you both published and endorsed.

  60. There are vastly attended groups with long post crucifixion histories, which have so polluted the Word of God that it is clear they have left their first love and the Spirit behind in their own determination to maintain well established errors,

    OK so you can forget your sham that we are all one body. The body of Christ for you starts with the Reformation and the uberliberal Martin Luther.

    You are clearly double minded.

    Btw it was Bull the other day saying the holocaust was caused by liberal Christians.

  61. There’s no doubt at all that the Christian Right are just a manifestation of the Sanhedrin.

    They’d do Jesus all over again.

  62. Hey, Rowan Williams is not an “honorary” Druid Bard, anymore than Rowan Atkinson, Kenneth Branagh, HM Queen Elizabeth and a host of others, including Winston Churchill, are or were.

    If you want to know what the roots of Druidism are, Boadicea was a Hebrew queen and Mel Brooks made a joke of being “Druish” in Space Balls. But Druids are no laughing matter, even though the highest ranking Druid in Britain is Rowan Atkinson (study up the origins of Samhain and Jack-o-lanterns).

    Funny, but I could never stand the little creep and thought it funny that anyone actually found him funny.

    And Bones, you are right, the Christian Right, who are not really Christian or right, would off Jesus in a heartbeat, in fact, they are doing it even as we speak, as they covet their 501C status and the praises of men and blindly support a cruel and rapacious regime in blind adherence to a corrupted comprehension of Romans 13. Right thinking Christians are manning gunships and jets and machine-guns and firing depleted uranium rounds and destroying the cradle of civilization as we speak – they are not Christians, they are BARBARIANS! Just look at the FILTH who are killing faith believers in Syria, many of who had to flee Iraq cue to the “Christian” army of “Christian” America and its “Christian” President. Hand me a bucket already!

    But too I remember a Democrat Senator saying that of course he knew the gospel when called an agent of antichrist by John Hagee, and how he said that he knew what John 16:3 says. I heard Hagee chortle about this, and make fun of this man, but I heard the Holy Spirit within say, “No he meant what he said – look it up” I found John 16:1-3 very interesting, almost as interesting as Hagee’s sneering contrasted with Al Gores apparent graciousness in the face of his accusers and satanic sifters.

    WE all have the Seed of Christ within us and that of a Serpent too – only the Sword of the Spirit may rightly divide between the two. People who think that because they are saved it makes everything copacetic are crazy – you, me we all need to be circumcised in heart and converted in mind.

    We are sown in corruption, raised in incorruption – hallelujah and amen! Isn’t God amazing? 0(:->)

  63. You even defended its wicked comparisons wit Hitler and Pol Pot.

    It hasn’t finished you know. You can treat pagans however you want. Of course in Latin America there is a close tie between right wing dictatorships and Christianity.

    Guatemala’s Evangelical Dictator Found Guilty of Genocide
    American Christians once championed Efraín Ríos Montt. Now court says ruler tried to destroy Mayan ethnic group.

    Thirty years after Guatemalan army general-turned-dictator Efrain Rios Montt, a longtime lay pastor in Guatemala’s Pentecostal Verbo Church and once popular among American evangelicals, was removed from power, a three-judge panel has declared him guilty of genocide against a Mayan ethnic group.

    Judges sentenced Montt to 80 years in prison—50 years for charges of genocide, and 30 years for crimes against humanity—for ordering the deaths of 1,700 Ixil ethnic Mayans. According to the Los Angeles Times, “The landmark ruling by a panel of three Guatemalan judges came after a dramatic trial that featured testimony from dozens of ethnic Ixil Maya, who described atrocities committed by the army and security forces who sought to clean the countryside of Marxist guerrillas and their sympathizers during the 1982-83 period that Rios Montt, an army general and coup leader, served as the country’s de facto leader.”

    http://blog.christianitytoday.com/ctliveblog/archives/2013/05/guatemala-efrain-rios-montt-guilty-of-genocide.html?utm_source=ctdirect-html&utm_medium=Newsletter&utm_term=11930795&utm_content=176048046&utm_campaign=2013

  64. See, when i get all amped up i make syntax (sin-tax?) errors like greG does – maybe we are too alike? – LOL

    …many of who had to flee Iraq DUE to the “Christian” army….

    Of course those who are doing the killing will themselves die by the Sword. You reap in the flesh what is sown in the flesh, but you reap in the Spirit that which is sown in the Spirit, the incorruptible SEED! Are you getting this guys? I am. LOL. Its called a two-edged sword – it cuts both ways.

    Not only do you reap in the flesh that which is sown to the flesh, but that which is sown IN the flesh, that which is sown IN the corruption of the flesh, AND you reap in the Spirit that which is sown in and by the Spirit, the eternal Christ Life. Oh boy, I feel like I am swimming in this…next phase is to drown in His presence…LOL…the joy of the Lord is our strength…and His strength is made perfect in our weakness…

    Did you know that more troops from the Iraq and AfPac campaigns have died by their own hand as did in combat? Jesus has mercy upon their souls – such a depth of shame and sense of sin that they should rather kill themselves in seeking some kind of salvation, some kind of redemption from what they have been compelled to do, as Iraqi mothers cry for their dead and ask why, what did we do to you?

    Wake up people, this is hell that is being perpetuated, not the kingdom of heaven, wake up! The last Reich is arising and it is about to get very messy. But also I know that it is ordained from before time that this should be so and the scroll is being revealed and the story being told, and all i can cling to in my heart of hearts is that God is ultimately in control and knows what He is doing, even when i don’t….

  65. Fundamentalist arguing techniques

    There are a number of techniques to help right-wing fundamentalists avoid difficult questions (like, if the Bible is inerrant, why does Leviticus 11:6 claim that hares chew their cuds like cows? What about the hilarious scene in Exodus 17:8-11?). These include:
    Repeat your original answer/argument using different language. Example: “If you don’t agree with me, you’re going to Hell.” “Please explain why you say that.” “People who don’t believe in literal Biblical inerrancy are destined for eternal damnation.”
    Use loaded language. Example: He’s not an abortionist, he’s a “baby-murderer.”
    Rely exclusively on certain verses of the Bible, while ignoring any verses that contradict your position. For example, Leviticus 20:13 says that male homosexuality is an abomination unto the Lord and a capital offense. Leviticus 19:19 forbids cross-breeding, acne pimples, and wearing cotton-polyester blends (or any other kind of fabric blends).
    Make use of sweeping generalizations, particularly about the character and eventual destination of anyone who disagrees with you.
    Resort to ad-hominem attacks. If someone questions your logic, he is a godless liberal atheist who is destined for eternal damnation.
    If the facts are against you, quote Scripture. If Scripture is against you, it is being misinterpreted by your opponent, who is deceived (q.v.). If both facts and Scripture are against you, shout and pound on the table. (This technique was invented by lawyers.)
    Change the subject. For example, someone says, “How can you say that Jesus is in favor of preemptive war? Didn’t he go to his death rather than cause harm to any other human being?” Reply, “The Book of Revelation talks about—”
    Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil. If some fact might embarrass you, never reveal it. If someone else does, suppress it, deny it, or mock it. This is the Bush administration’s standard approach to science, particularly global warming.
    Become incredulous and indignant (the “how dare you?” gambit). Example: “How dare you suggest that innocent civilians incarcerated at abu Ghraib were tortured! You are dishonoring our fine military. You should be ashamed of yourself.” This tactic worked so well on Congressman Dick Durban (who suggested that the many verified reports of torture and abuse in Iraq, Afghanistan, and abu Ghraib sounded like something out of Nazi Germany rather than the United States) that he actually ended up apologizing for offending our fine military.
    Denounce any fact that contradicts your position as a scurrilous rumor or a wild accusation.
    Use a straw man. Find or create a piece of your opponent’s argument that you can easily knock down to make yourself look good and the opponent to look bad. Example: “People who believe in the theory of evolution believe that God does not exist, and therefore did not create the Universe, natural selection, or anything else.”
    Resort to name-calling and ridicule. Anyone who opposes you is by definition a godless Commie liberal homosexual-loving bigot destined for eternal damnation.
    Hit and run. Responding to an opponent’s questions and criticisms merely dignifies his/her position.
    Question the other person’s motives. Twist or amplify any fact to make it appear that your opponent is biased, out only to fulfill his/her personal agenda. Force your opponent onto the defensive. “I guess you just hate Jesus, don’t you?”
    Invoke authority. If you can’t come up with support from the Bible for your position, surely some fundamentalist “scholar” has written something. “He’s the dean of the Closed Minds School of Theology, obviously he knows more than you do about the subject.”
    Play dumb. Whatever your opponent says, reply, “You’re not making the slightest bit of sense. You have no idea what logic is. You don’t have any facts to support you.”
    Associate your opponent’s charges with old news. (This is a variation on the straw man argument.) For example, if someone asks whether Jesus would approve of torturing someone to compel him to tell you what you want to hear, say, “That’s ancient history, and anyway, all the torture was carried out by privates and corporals.”
    Take the “high road.” Confess that you made some minor mistake but that your opponent is blowing it out of all proportion, charging you with much worse mistakes or crimes that are simply not true. Example: “So I slipped in calling a first-month miscarriage a ‘baby-killing.'” Remember, it’s all about your opponent’s weaknesses.
    Paint the entire affair as too complex to understand. “The Lord moves in mysterious ways.”
    Reason backwards. “If there were any evidence that George W. Bush wanted to go to Iraq so he could finish the job his father started, only more successfully, the media would have uncovered it. Therefore, he wanted to go to Iraq because Saddam was behind 9/11, just as Bush said he was.”
    Demand that your opponent provide a complete solution to your problem. Example: “Since you know so much, prove to me how an irreducibly complex system like a human being could ‘just happen.'”
    Fit the facts to your conclusion. “I am a physician, and I spent about half an hour looking at a several-years-old, heavily doctored videotape of the patient. She is not in a persistent vegetative state” — as subsequent facts proved — “so people who want to fulfill her wishes and allow her to die with dignity are murderers.”
    Change the subject. “All this business about the book of Revelation having been written as anti-Nero propaganda is nonsense. The Messiah would never stoop to propaganda. The Messiah—”
    Emotionalize, antagonize, and goad your opponents. Make it all about them, the godless queer-loving commie bigots.
    Demand proof from your opponent, preferably proof that is impossible to come by. “You say that most of the book of Genesis was put into writing around 925-910 BCE, by someone who hero-worshiped King David? What fundamentalist Bible college teaches that? Show me your archeological evidence.”
    Use false evidence. Quote from the book of Dalmatians or the book of Amphibians, for example. The chances are excellent that the person you’re talking to can’t tell the difference between Abraham and Moses anyway.
    Manufacture a new truth. If you can’t come up with any facts to support your position, appeal to fundamentalist religious authorities, authors, or leaders, or invent new ones.
    Create a distraction. Example: If someone says, “I believe that God created the Universe, including natural selection,” say, “There is nothing in the Bible to support your position.”

  66. The Right-Wing Christian Dictionary

    Activist Anyone you disagree with. Thus, “activist” judges, “activist” unions, “activist” school boards, and “activist” homosexuals.

    Adam and Steve As in, “God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.” A clever saying you can use whenever you want to prove how brilliant and original you are.

    Agenda All political objectives you oppose. Democrats, liberals, feminists, environmentalists, and gays have “agendas.” Right-wing politicians have “hopes” and “dreams” and “godly plans of action.”

    Bible-based Anything in the Bible you agree with. (Anything that contradicts your beliefs, like Jesus’s command to love your enemies, should be ignored.)

    Born again Anyone who has experienced a personal spiritual awakening that results in his (or sometimes her) agreement with your ideas and values. Otherwise see “cult.” Term can never be applied to homosexuals.

    Christian Anyone who is a member of a right-wing Christian organization, such as the Christian Coalition. Ant., “Godless atheist,” q.v

    Civil rights The concept of equal legal rights; applies to everyone except gay and lesbian Americans, for whom equal rights become “special” rights (q.v.).

    Compassion The feeling you say you are expressing when you attack people you hate (especially homosexuals), so that you don’t have to feel guilty. See “gay bashing,” “death penalty.”

    Conservative See “God.”

    Cult Any religious organization that does not practice conservative biblical literalism, e.g., the Society of Friends, the Episcopal Church.

    Deception Term describing the state of being a fellow Christian is in if he disagrees with you on a social or theological issue. For example, if another Christian holds views that are pro-choice, pro-gay rights, or anti-death penalty, then she/he is “deceived.” If the same Christian makes a logical, reasoned argument for his position, then he is “misled.” If the same Christian also makes a Scriptural argument for their position, then they are “false teachers,” “rebellious,” and guilty of “twisting the Word.” See “Liberal.”

    Fundamentalism, Christian The greatest hope for the integrity of our Beloved Nation.

    Fundamentalism, Islamic The greatest threat to the integrity of our Beloved Nation. (Fact: Rush Limbaugh has said this many, many times.)

    Gay/Lesbian Homosexual is the preferred term, as it focuses more explicitly on sex. Homosexuality is a chosen lifestyle that is unnatural, hated by God; it is either a mental disorder or an addiction. It is caused either by childhood molestation or by having a feminist mother. Right-wing conservatives believe that homosexuals, along with feminists and liberals, are responsible for nearly all social ills (with the possible exception of abortion).

    Gay bashing Does not exist. Jesus hates all gay people as much as you do. That’s why he is said to have never married and is commonly believed to have wandered the countryside in a men-only group of long-haired pacifists. God wants everyone to hate homosexuality and to urge homosexuals to get therapy to “cure” their “addiction.”

    Gay Christians A contradiction in terms. Those who claim to exist are “trapped” in a state of Deception, and are first in line for the Lake of Fire because they “twist God’s Word.” To save them, right-wing Christians must exercise “compassion” and tell them that God wants to kill them.

    God An old white man with a long, white beard, who lives above the sky and seldom interferes with the affairs of men, much less women. Because Eve ate the fruit of the Tree of the Attractive Nuisance, and then wickedly persuaded Adam to do it too, God condemned every life form in the Universe to death and eternal agony in Hell, with the exception of those who have been “born again” at least once and who await the Rapture (q.v.). That is, God took physical form as Jesus of Nazareth so that he could suffer and die upon the Cross and thus appease his own anger against human disobedience — that is, appease himself. God’s 36-hour (“three-day”) death is also a payoff to Satan, whom God has insufficient power to conquer, or else it is a victory over Satan, who apparently did not want God to become human and die. See “Republican.”

    Godless atheist Anyone who is not a member of a right-wing Christian organization; especially, anyone who is a member of the Westar Institute, the Center for Progressive Christianity, or similar godless liberal organizations. See also “Deceived.”

    Homosexual agenda, the Gay people exercising their rights to free speech and to petition the government for redress of grievances. When right-wing Christians engage in the same activity, it is called “grassroots citizen’s movement.”

    Jesus Christ A conservative Republican leader to whom some erroneously attribute the phrases “love thy neighbor” and “turn the other cheek.” If he were alive today, he would drive an SUV (remember: conservative doesn’t mean conservationist!) and support both preemptive warfare and the massive transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich.

    Liberal Anyone who shows human compassion, cares about social welfare, or reads such Commie newspapers as The Washington Post. Alternate definition: an individual, organization, or institution that is deceived. See “Deception.”

    Materialism Does not exist; therefore, not an issue. Massive personal wealth among leaders of organizations you support (especially televangelists and friends of George W. Bush) is further evidence of God’s favor.

    Persecution Suffered if your position on an issue is actively opposed. Examples of “persecution” include investigative journalistic reporting, any lawsuit filed against your church organization by the ACLU, or being yelled at by people whom you have harassed by fax or phone or whom you have misrepresented in your fund-raising materials.

    Radical Applied to anyone who disagrees with you. Thus, “radical” homosexuals, “radical” feminists, “radical” environmentalists. Right-wing Christians are not radical, they are “committed” and “focused.”

    Traditional values The classic values and morals that made America great, such as lynching blacks, beating up gays, and keeping the “little woman” barefoot, pregnant, and in servitude.

    http://www.extremelysmart.com/humor/rightwingdictionary.php

  67. Again Bones shows us the bigot he is.

    OK so you can forget your sham that we are all one body. The body of Christ for you starts with the Reformation and the uberliberal Martin Luther.

    The Body of Christ, for me, starts with Christ.

    Everything that has happened since which is error has to be sifted so that the chaff is removed and burned.

    If people preach error they are clearly not in the Body. If they preach anything but Christ and him crucified they are not part of the Body. If they do not have the Spirit of Christ they are not of Christ.

    You include any religion, any idol worshipper, any philosophy. And you aggressively press the point. But it s still wrong.

  68. I notice, in the last two comments he added, Bones sticks to his US democrat liberal theology class notes.

    The irony is so lost on him he actually believes his, and his liberal US mentors’, press.

  69. I notice, in the last two comments he added, Bones sticks to his US democrat liberal theology class notes.

    But I thought you said you were ‘centrist’. Seems to me you’re taking all this personally and are extremely double minded on this.

    It’s easy for the Right to adopt genocidal tendencies. When you believe in a god who liquidates unbelievers, you become like that god.

    Lol at being called bigoted. I’ve never advocated that my god will torture you forever if you don’t agree with me. Unlike some on here.

  70. Why do you beat on about Catholics? They have as much access to the Bible, and in their own language, whoever they are, as anyone else. They can see for themselves whether the five dogmas of Mary, purgatory, adoration of iconised saints, Christ being called down by priests into bread and wine, the infallibility of the pope are acceptable, or if the other errors taught by their own catechism are Biblical. The thing is, they are told only a priest can know the truth, and that there are dogmas formed outside of the Bible which are even more authentic than the Bible.

    Hang on! Don’t you think the same thing yourself?

  71. Well you aligned yourself with leftist liberal theology, Bones, and you named everyone else right wing conservatives. I haven’t labelled anyone, but if you want to wear that badge I’m happy to go along with it, but don’t expect any sympathy for the bigoted line you thus take. The writers f the articles you and Greg quoted also named themselves left wing liberals. I didn’t say that. That is their self-assertion, and you have adopted it. So be it.

    It is also noticeable that you seek out the most terrible and extreme incidents you can and attach them to Bible believers with the right wing tag, when you know very well that the average Bible believing Christian would never condone the evil you attach to them.

    This is what makes your extremist views so poisonous to the Body.

    And it shows up in the article Greg posted too.

    It is ugly and uncalled for, and reflects more on you and Greg than on anyone else on this thread.

    I don’t really know what either of you is trying to prove.

    Are you better people than others? Why? Because you are a left wing liberal?

    The question is, will God accept that as a value? I doubt it somehow.

  72. But here’s what I think.

    You and Greg are just reflecting a vanguard of hatred towards Bible believing Christians.

    Gradually, Bible believing Christians will be tagged in the fashion displayed on this thread by ‘liberals’ and ostracised. It will even lead to some form of persecution. The vehemence displayed here will increase. Court cases involving Bible believing Christians will become the norm as a clampdown begins. Rallies against Bible believing Christians will increase. Bibles will be burned in the streets. A liberal ‘bible’ will be issued, which has all the controversial passages stripped out. Possession of an authentic translation of a Bible will be outlawed. Gay liberal universalist ‘churches’ will spring up everywhere.

    I guess this scenario already appeals to you.

  73. This is what makes your extremist views so poisonous to the Body.

    eg

    Micah 6
    8 He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
    And what does the Lord require of you?
    To act justly and to love mercy
    and to walk humbly with your God.

    Matthew 5
    43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbour and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven.

    I apologise for infecting Christians with such extremist ideals.

    Please allow normal programming to continue and show the world what judgemental pricks you are.

    Salt and light of the Earth?

    F##k off!

  74. If you mean should go and leave you and Greg to your bigoted opinion of Bible believing Christians, I’d be delighted to oblige.

    You’re so full of yourselves with your wrong headed opinion of what people like me believe and your exclusive claims to all justice, love and mercy, it’s a wonder you can look yourself in the mirror without falling in passionately in love with yourselves to the exclusion of all others.

    It’s all yours…

  75. You and Greg are just reflecting a vanguard of hatred towards Bible believing Christians.

    Oh no. Everyone’s out to get me.

    First it was the gays.

    Then Zorro and the masked posters at Church Watch.

    Now it’s the liberals and their profane message of following Christ.

    There are conspiracies everywhere seeking to persecute the holy one of God.

    I can see Desmond Tutu coming in the middle of the night to take Steve out with his death squad.

  76. Gees that escalated quick! Good grief Steve. No one is attacking you personally. When you carry on about Catholics we felt exactly the way your feeling now, so get a grip mate. Seriously. Just because you think a certain way of being a Christian is the only way of being a Christian it doesn’t actually follow that you’re necessarily right! Guess want? Catholics have been happily worshiping god for 2000 years….a lot longer than C3 has been around mate.

  77. Gradually, Bible believing Christians will be tagged in the fashion displayed on this thread by ‘liberals’ and ostracised. It will even lead to some form of persecution. The vehemence displayed here will increase. Court cases involving Bible believing Christians will become the norm as a clampdown begins. Rallies against Bible believing Christians will increase. Bibles will be burned in the streets. A liberal ‘bible’ will be issued, which has all the controversial passages stripped out. Possession of an authentic translation of a Bible will be outlawed. Gay liberal universalist ‘churches’ will spring up everywhere.

    I guess this scenario already appeals to you.

    Just the bit about the gay liberal churches springing up everywhere; the more churches there are the happier everyone will be.

  78. Greg,
    No one is attacking you personally.

    Bones,
    F##k off!

    Sheesh, Greg, how many times is that now on this thread I’ve had to point you to where Bones has made a stronger than necessary comment?

    I don’t mind discussing things in the strongest terms, but I won’t be told to F##k off! by a self-proclimed liberal ‘man of peace’ who merely demonstrates the very militance I am pointing out in some liberals who take it all too far.

    If that is not a personal attack, I don’t know what is.

    And don’t come the innocent party when you support quotes such as…

    The tree that is the Christian Right all too frequently bears fruit of anger, hate and judgment. It produces some strange fruit. “The same strange fruit that white supremacists hung from the trees in the South. The same strange fruit that the Nazis baked in the ovens of Auschwitz. The same strange fruit that was diced and sliced with machetes in Rwanda. The same strange fruit that is left to rot to death in Africa because the cost of a cure may undercut someone’s bottom line. The same strange fruit that is pounded to death daily with rocks and bombs in the Middle East. The same strange fruit that are depressed to death because of homophobic bullying. Trees that bear these fruits, systems that bear these fruits are to be cut down and thrown into the fires – they are the chaff that God wills to burn in an “unquenchable fire,” where they will bear the fruit of domination no longer.”

    Yes, you and Bones promote this kind of trash, and defend it.

    I don’t have to stick around to cop this kind of abuse.

  79. Come on girls, stop bickering, it is so unladylike. We are not meant to tear one another down and sift one another, but to build on another up in the love and nurture of the Lord. The left/right paradigm is a contrivance, it is a construct, and it is the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, ergo it is death. It is simply childish nonsense to even speak of a Christian left and right or to be lured into such a conflict. It is the divide and conquer principle in play and is the battlefield of carnal minds inclined to lust in practice – what are you defending, the kingdom, Christ, the Church, your church? Christ does not need defending, and the Word of the Lord is its own vindication.

    It is simple – look at the fruit – where is, what is the fruit? Are lives changes, are people redeemed from death to Life, or are the corpses piling higher and higher until it is no longer concealable that the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil ergo left and right, is death. Its like one side of the death paradigm arguing with the other and it is all nonsense, it is all death. Left leaning liberal Xians champion such canards as “choice” while the Right kills peasants for profit and pleasure – it is all wrong, it is all a lie and to try and defend one side of the domain of death against the other is simply blindness in action.

    Come on guys,, the next thing you will be telling me is that you can have such a thing as a Christian country, Government, or a vote that actually means anything. Yeah, and Obama follows Jesus, and idiots swallow such obvious lies….its the fruit, always the fruit, the fruit never lies…

  80. Whoa up there big boy…I post the articles for discussion…you know very well that I don’t necessarily agree with everything in them.

    Mayhaps a break will do you well. Come back next week with a decent post we can vonversate about

  81. The tree that is the Christian Right all too frequently bears fruit of anger, hate and judgment. It produces some strange fruit.

    Verbo Villages and the Rios Montt Guatemala Thailand Connection
    How to use Churches in association with Governments to weaken villages, displace or kill villagers, take the land and please both corporations and governments.
    (And keep your visa and good life at the mission)

    Extensive Reference On The Verbo Church Movement
    The Jesus Movement Association With Guatemalan Death Squads

    Treatment of Catholic Churches

    It was in the coercive resettlement program that Israel’s activities in Guatemala intersected most directly with those of the Christian right surrounding the Reagan Administration. This was particularly true during the reign of Rios Montt. Montt was a so-called “born-again Christian,” a member (“elder”) of the Arcata, California based Church of the Word, a branch of Evangelical Gospel Outreach.

    In Guatemala, the Christian right was interested in converts by the end of 1982 reactionary Protestants had succeeded in recruiting 22 percent of the population to their theology of blind obedience and anti-communism. They were particularly hostile to Catholicism, especially “Liberation Theology,” which many of the Guatemalan military deemed responsible for the insurgency.

    Right-wing Christian organizations seemed to be especially drawn to the harsh social control being exerted on the highland Mayans. During the Rios Montt period, foreign fundamentalists were permitted access to military operational zones, while Catholics were turned away-or attacked. During this period “many Catholic rectories and churches in Quiche [a highland province] [were] turned into Army barracks. In late 1983, the Vatican itself protested the murder of a Franciscan priest in Guatemala and the (exiled) Guatemalan Human Rights Commission (CDHG) charged that in the space of several months 500 catechists had been disappeared. In October the police caught and tortured some religious workers.

    Meanwhile, Rios Montt surrounded himself with advisers, both North American and Guatemalan, from his Verbo church, and what appeared to be a loose coalition of right-wing fundamentalist organizations, most notably Pat Robertson’s Christian Broadcasting Network, began an extensive fundraising drive and also started sending volunteers to Ixil Triangle villages under military control. Rios Montt chose
    Love Lift International, the “relief arm” of Gospel Outreach, Verbo’s parent church, to carry the food and supplies purchased with the money raised. Verbo representatives, along with an older evangelical outfit, the Wycliffe Bible Translators (WBT/SIL, the latter initials for the Summer Institute of Linguistics, an organization whose CIA connections are long and impeccable and which has often been charged
    with involvement in massacres of indigenous peoples throughout the Americas), arranged with the government “to take charge of all medical work in the Ixil Triangle, and for all education in Indian areas up to the third grade to be taught in Indian languages with WBT/SIL assistance,” through the Behrhorst Clinic. WBT/SIL and the Clinic’s parent, the Behrhorst Foundation, incorporated with Verbo
    Church into the Foundation for Aid to the Indian People (FUNDAPI), whose stated purpose was to channel international Christian donations to refugees and which coordinated volunteers from U.S. right-wing religious organizations.

    GUATEMALA: One of the school’s most infamous graduates is a former President, Gen. Jose Efrain Rios Montt. Rios Montt, a “born again” killer with ties to the authoritarian, Eureka, California-based Gospel Outreach/Verbo Church, presided over the creation of a Guatemalan version of the CIA’s “Phoenix Program.” During “Plan Victoria 82,” and an accessory program, “Fusiles y Frijoles” (“guns and beans”), entire Mayan highland villages were wiped off the map and the survivors of these massacres were herded into “strategic hamlets.” The intellectual origins for Rios Montt’s program was a 1970s counterinsurgency document called “U.S. Program of Pacification and Eradication of Communism.” By July 1982, an estimated 3-10,000 civilians had been murdered. Rios Montt has been since found gulty of genocide.

    On 5 December 1982, Ronald Reagan met the Guatemalan president, Efraín Ríos Montt, in Honduras. It was a useful meeting for Reagan. ‘Well, I learned a lot,’ he told reporters on Air Force One. ‘You’d be surprised. They’re all individual countries.’ It was also a useful meeting for Ríos Montt. Reagan declared him ‘a man of great personal integrity . . . totally dedicated to democracy’, and claimed that the Guatemalan strongman was getting ‘a bum rap’ from human rights organisations for his military’s campaign against leftist guerrillas. The next day, one of Guatemala’s elite platoons entered a jungle village called Las Dos Erres and killed 162 of its inhabitants, 67 of them children. Soldiers grabbed babies and toddlers by their legs, swung them in the air, and smashed their heads against a wall. Older children and adults were forced to kneel at the edge of a well, where a single blow from a sledgehammer sent them plummeting below. The platoon then raped a selection of women and girls it had saved for last, pummelling their stomachs in order to force the pregnant among them to miscarry. They tossed the women into the well and filled it with dirt, burying an unlucky few alive. The only traces of the bodies later visitors would find were blood on the walls and placentas and umbilical cords on the ground.

    When interviewed Rios Montt said “It is not I who is the head of Guatemala, here the one in charge is Jesus Christ.”

  82. American politicians and their puppets have always hidden behind the Cross. I place a lot of the blame on the KJV (Kill Jesus Version) and the theology foisted upon the largely ignorant American public by wolves in sheep’s clothing such as Wesley, Whitfield, Booth and Scofield, and later Norman Vincent Peale and such luminaries of Lucifer. And lets not forget Maimonides, Loyola and Calvin. The art of dissimulation by systematic leavening was well known to its perpetrators. If you want to know how slick they can be, simply watch Sid Roth(shilled) – who I think is a Marrano master of deception.

    The problem with most Right or Left leaning folk is that they cannot see from the middle of the road, they defend a position instead of seeing both sides of a fruitless, futile argument. The only reason politics and piety have become bedfellows is political expedience and the conditioned willingness on the part of the plundered or oppressed mobs and masses to become part of the political process as they see no alternative to struggle, or on the other hand, domination, to address the situation.

    It is in fact Catholicism which set them up for plunder and powerlessness to prevent it by any other means than the barrel of a gun. Catholicism dis-empowers people and makes them victim to a power elite and structure which is designed to keep them in subconscious bondage to their religion and their rulers – such is the nature of Babylonian Judaism and all its many offshoots, all leavened alike.

    The way in which the Power of the Resurrection was denied to the laity through subversion of the priesthood by the steady incremental influence of the Pharisees is history, and except in very limited expressions, what is called the Church bears little or no resemblance to that congregation of the saints in light purposed and planted by Paul, Peter, John and the other apostles.

    There is not going to be any reformation this time around, the Church is going to split down the middle, one half reconnecting to Rome and to the Papacy and the other becoming the remnant gone rampant. This will not be left and right, it will be works righteousness vs faith righteousness, the Law vs Grace, and it will have come to a head as this leavening has been working its wicked worst ever since Paul warned with tears as to its inevitable entry into the Congregations of the saints

    Intriguing that the name Las Dos Erres means “The Two R’s” – yeah, Rockefeller and Rothschild.

    The Jesuits say, give me the child until seven and we will give you the man. Irrespective of the all the new patches, it is the old garment which is the problem – Pentecostalism was an offshoot of and offshoot of and offshoot of Catholicism – it is all the same family tree – it is all the tree of knowledge – it is all Babylon and it is all coming down. Family squabbles can be so ugly. Esau and Jacob are still at it!

    When gross darkness covers the world, when the war and disease and disasters are wracking the planet, when the heavens are as brass and there is no God to be found – when it all goes to hell in a handcart – then you will find out just how ridiculous politics really are and that the only reason you ever got sucked into it is your own partiality, preferences and judgments.

    Left, right, left, right, left, right as they all march off to do battle – but you will find me in the middle of the Highway with Jesus…I hope….

    We don’t have to defend a position when walking in the Spirit; our ‘position’ is our defense.

    Jesus did not tell you to build a (strong) tower, but to COUNT THE COST OF YOUR BUILDING which is not being built up into Him but rather beavering to buy bricks to build Babylon, or a gated community thereof. It matters not what suburb of Babylon you live in, nor what Church you attend in the belief that it is a more highly exalted member of Christ – speaking of which, what congregation connotes the colon? There is only ONE congregation of the Saints in Light, and it does not wear purple and scarlet, nor does it eat the flesh and drink the blood of its sacrifices while denying the inherent truth of Jesus in that all His creation is His and in Him there is no partiality and all get the same denarius for their day in the vineyard.

  83. Catholicism dis-empowers people and makes them victim to a power elite and structure which is designed to keep them in subconscious bondage to their religion and their rulers

    Said like only someone who knows nothing about what it means to be Catholic.

  84. Ahh, but I do Greg – when i first got “saved” I looked about for a Church and as the Catholics had the biggest and oldest operation, I went with them first, then when I got back to CHCH I hooked up with the Anglicans and then the WOF and then the Toronto Fire Brigade. I have looked long and hard at the all Greg, and I do not discount for a minute that God is in Catholics as He is in everyone human being which is born of the Spirit.

    Years ago I was shown the first of three visions of the Church as a giant family tree, an Oak. I had a theologian friend tell me that it could not have been the Church as it was not scriptural, not being of the Fig genus nor a Vine even. What he did not realize, nor even I then, was that it was not about the Body of Christ, the Temple of God, but it was about the Carnal Church which is to the Spirit as the outer man is to the inner. The crust rather than the Christ. The chaff rather than the wheat.

    (Note that the ecumenical initiative of Rick Joyner is fashioned after the OAK TREE, object of Druid devotion, and he wearing the regalia of he Knights of Malta, just like her madge-is-tea. They are all Catholics, protesting or otherwise, and it is through the Catholic Church that the world has and is being Germanated. I suppose next thing you will try and tell me is that Prince Charles was no the author of that damnable document, Agenda 21?)

    The function of the Pharisee is to prevent those who seek the kingdom from entering in. To ensure their primacy, cash flow (they simply adore money) and privileges they must corral a congregation and keep it captive to a creed. The ecumenical World Church movement will be the end of Christianity as we know it, the only consolation is that it will be captive and powerless, relying upon Babylonian agreement principles rather than faith in God and submission to His will.

    Jesus IS THE POWER OF GOD, and this is the good news, it is not the Gospels that are the power of God. Learn to trust the Teacher within and be firmly grounded such that you will not follow every revolutionary wind of doctrine and the wisdom of men. You need not that any man should teach you, BUT the ANOINTING WITHIN, the Holy Spirit within, will teach you ALL THINGS and lead you into ALL TRUTH. Imagine that you have inside of you a library, a Biblos of absolute knowledge, of all knowledge such that you need not that any should tell you to worship God or how to and nor you they…for who worships God must do so in Spirit and in Truth – so in order to worship God properly you have to be IN TRUTH and only the Spirit can lead you into ALL TRUTH – the Truth which sets you free.

    The time is coming and indeed is, that you will not need to tell your neighbor to know God, for all shall know Him from the least unto the greatest – and no more flipping hierarchies! I hate them as much as Jesus does. The main reason why you have to become as little child is so that the Holy Spirit can get past all that foundational indoctrination that was well entrenched in you as a fortress called Christendom by the time you were Seven years old. You have been programmed and you cannot even see it because you are using the software THEY GAVE YOU! Get it? That is why we must become BORN ANEW, BORN FROM ABOVE, as a little child, as a clean slate, otherwise no matter what you know or learn it is all just patches on an old program, an old garment, which your church and your parents and your priests clothed you with called self-righteousness.

    We have to become as new born children, naked before the Lord, so that he might clothe us with His righteousness, not knee jerk religious robots programmed with the myths of the Jews, the traditions of men, and doctrines of devils. Beware the dogs of the circumcision and the twisted workers. The one thing that the Jesuits know and adapted from their Jewish roots, is that if you program the child to seven, they are pretty much marked for life, until they receive another Mark.

  85. Wow, you start off making sense and then…KAPOW…back to visions as nonsense (as in not making sense).

    You and I have similar experiences Ian, although I was brought up as a catholic and felt the call if God into ministry as a catholic…at a Festival of Light event led by Fred Nile (being in new zealand ewe might nit know who he is…he is now a nut bag politician who rages against everything) but always felt it would be different to what I was experiencing in the Catholic Church. I had no idea then that I would leave the church and one day be reconciled with Christ through the ministry of Frank Houston!

    I’ve worshiped at catholic, Salvation Army, uniting church, charismatic, Pentecostal and now am at home in the Anglican Church.

  86. The Religious Right and the Ruthless Dictator

    Thirty years ago, the Religious Right played a significant role in U.S.-Central American relations: vigorously supporting President Ronald Reagan’s so-called low-intensity wars in the region – the contras in Nicaragua, right wing paramilitary death squads in El Salvador, and military dictators in Guatemala – a policy that was responsible for the death of hundreds of thousands of people. The Religious Right’s support was in part couched in the struggle against communism, and in part tied to what they hoped would be the expansion of evangelical Protestantism in the region.

    Guatemala’s José Efraín Ríos Montt was a favorite of the Rev. Jerry Falwell, Loren Cunningham’s Youth With A Mission (YWAM), and televangelist Pat Robertson.

    In his book, The Most Dangerous Man in America?: Pat Robertson and the Rise of the Christian Coalition, Americans United’s Rob Boston pointed out that Pat Robertson had praised Ríos Montt for his “enlightened leadership” and claimed that the dictator insisted on “honesty in government.” Observed Robertson, “I was in Guatemala three days after Ríos Montt overthrew the corrupt [previous] government. The people had been dancing in the street for joy, literally fulfilling the words of Solomon who said, ‘When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice.’”

    According to Right Web, a project of the Institute for Policy Studies,

    “Within a week of the 1982 coup … Robertson flew to Guatemala to meet with the new president. Ríos Montt’s first interview as president was with Robertson, who aired it on [his Christian Broadcasting Network’s program]`The 700 Club’ and praised the new military government. Robertson also urged donations for International Love Lift, a relief project of Ríos Montt’s U.S. church, Gospel Outreach. Ríos Montt said that Pat Robertson had offered to send missionaries and `more than a billion dollars’ in aid from U.S. fundamentalists. Robertson, however, claimed that he hoped to match the earlier CBN donation of $350,000 in earthquake relief and send `a small team of medical and agricultural experts’ to Guatemala. CBN reportedly sponsored a campaign to send money and agricultural and medical technicians to help design the first model villages under Ríos Montt.”

    In her 1989 book, Spiritual Warfare: The Politics of the Christian Right (South End Press), Sara Diamond wrote: “Ríos Montt’s ascension to power was celebrated by the U.S. Christian Right as a sign of divine intervention in Central America.”

    While Robertson never delivered the sums of money Ríos Montt expected, Diamond pointed out that the promise “enabled Ríos Montt to convince the U.S. Congress that he would not seek massive sums of U.S. aid. Instead, he would rely on `private aid’ from U.S. evangelicals. Toward that end, Ríos Montt’s aide… came to the United States for a meeting with… [Presidential counselor] Edwin Meese, Interior Secretary James Watt… and Christian Right leaders Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, and Loren Cunningham).”

    In an article written prior to the publication of her book, Diamond pointed out that Montt was a member of Gospel Outreach, a fundamentalist sect based in Eureka, California, which became the Church of the Word. Diamond noted that “The Gospel in Guatemala,” a PBS documentary, “revealed the complicity of Gospel Outreach in the Guatemalan Army’s administration of camps for refugees from Rios Montt’s brutal counterinsurgency massacres of Mayan Quiche Indians.”

    In the September 25, 2006 edition of The Nation magazine, Max Blumenthal reported that, Loren Cunningham, according to Diamond “was a follower of Christian Reconstructionism an extreme current of evangelical theology that advocates using stealth political methods to put the United States under the control of Biblical law and jettison the Constitution.”

    These days, while Guatemalans are seeking justice, Pat Robertson is still selling snake oil on his “700 Club.” One of the Grand Old Men of televangelism is no longer as significant a political figure that he once was.

    “In 1996, I called Pat Robertson `the most dangerous man in America,’ but I wouldn’t do that now,” Americans United’s Rob Boston told me in an email. “Robertson is clearly in his dotage and is no longer the powerful political figure he once was. His influence declined greatly when the Christian Coalition collapsed. Without a large political organization behind him, Robertson became just another TV preacher ranting over the airwaves.”

    Boston was careful, however, to give Robertson his props. “That doesn’t mean we should dismiss Robertson as an unimportant figure,” Boston explained. “The model he used to launch the Christian Coalition has been copied by others, including the Family Research Council, thus ensuring that his legacy will be felt for many years to come.”

    Meanwhile, according to two experienced right-wing watchers, Robertson has not so much as uttered the name of his former Guatemalan contact, José Efraín Ríos Montt, on “The 700 Club.”

    http://friendsofjustice.wordpress.com/2012/03/05/did-the-religious-right-enable-guatemalan-genocide/

  87. Greg,
    I post the articles for discussion…you know very well that I don’t necessarily agree with everything in them.

    Yet you fight vehemently for them. Not that this is a problem, since it is fairly representative of your view, and that is understandable, even if it is provocative.

    However, this site has undoubtedly become strongly ‘liberal/left’ in its emphasis by the main contributors, which, although it is a huge improvement on the anti-C3/Hillsong disgrace it was under specksandplanks, it remains an uncomfortable environment for evangelicals and especially Pentecostals, who have been lumped into some right wing fundamentalist box called ‘the Christian right’, and demonised.

    I don’t see the benefit of contributing when often the response is aggressive. I know I can be strong in my opinion also, but when people start telling you to ‘f**k off’ for having a different perspective, and making extraordinarily extreme and excessive claims about what you stand for it becomes more personal than it should be, and the temptation is to respond in kind, which does no one any good.

    Somehow, when you tell people to ‘f**k off’ it doesn’t have the same kind of effect as when Bones last did it. Yours is almost tongue-in-cheek trying to look tough when you’re a big buff head type swearing. His ‘f**k off’ had something far more overtly threatening and offensive. I don’t know why, but that was more than anyone should have to deal with on a Christian site. somehow.

    I grew up in a rugged housing estate, and I work amongst people who’s every second word is often an expletive, so I don’t have an issue with bad language in those who do not know Christ, but when it comes from a supposed brother in Christ and it is laced with venom there is something absurdly obscene about it which goes beyond the actual expletive.

    And the continual comparisons to abjectly wicked acts by demonically inspired dictators is highly offensive. Neither you nor Bones ha qualified your stance on the comparisons to Hitler or Pol Pot. In fact, Bones waded in with more contrived commentary, which was so obscenely loaded I’ve had to let it go. But it is now the pattern for this site.

    Does anyone need to deliberately subject themselves to this kind of abuse for simply saying they trust the Bible and take it literally unless it is clearly poetic, allegorical or typical? Does being an evangelical have to attract such vehement cursing from someone who purports to be a believer?

    After a while the whole exercise becomes pointless because nothing changes.

    I’m disappointed because I would like to continue to contribute, but the environment has become toxic.

  88. If you leave, this site will be nothing Steve. Just don’t think of it as a Christian site.

    After the evil blasphemous disgusting “CHURCH SIGNS; WHO PROOF READS THESE THINGS?”
    was posted and allowed to stay, this site has lost any claim to be anything Christian.

    But there is merit in you’re being a light in darkness.

  89. Good grief Q you big nancy girl! Thoe church signs were real church signs. Don’t come here if you don’t like it… Wether you want Steve to stay or not is immaterial as you’re not a contributor anymore. So really, who cares what you think…and why are you bothering to say anything?

  90. Q has every right to come and go as he pleases, Greg.

    If you want to be fair minded as a moderator you should be encouraging as much varied dialogue as possible, not pushing it away.

    As soon as this site became a front for anti-evangelical political propaganda sites such as ‘Talk In Action’ you lost all credibility.

  91. Well I suppose you could start by disassociating yourself with the evils of the Christian Right. Which shouldn’t be hard because you claim you’re not of the Right!!!

    It’s a fact that the Christian Right supported dictators and militia in Central and South America. You might not like it but it will not go away because you don’t like it.

    It’s as much a fact as the Catholic involvement in the Crusades, inquisition whatever. (It’s funny how Catholicism has to keep it’s tainted history of abuses yet Bible believing Christians involved in atrocities are excused or you are condemned for bringing them up)

    Interesting that swearing is villified on here.

    Yet genocide isn’t.

    But that’s the Christian Right for you.

    Salt and Light of the Earth?

    Well you put your own response in.

  92. As soon as this site became a front for anti-evangelical political propaganda sites such as ‘Talk In Action’ you lost all credibility.

    Are you saying I had credibility prior to that?

    You and Q are apparently very thin skinned – I’ve never suggested nor supported anyone being compared to pol pot or any of those other people – you choose to take that part of the post personally – your issue not mine or Bones’ – as i have said – i post the stuff for comment – you have author rights and can post anything else you want to get discussion – once again, your choice – don’t sit on your hands crying like a little girl because you don’t like the post – post something you do like.

    And No, Q can’t come here and say what he wants like a petulant little cry baby.

  93. Look, Bones, your articles are so tainted by anti-Islraeli/anti-Christian right bias they are of no importance to any debate. Your sources are so far left that they have no credibility in any forum let alone his one.

    Your accusations of the Christian right, therefore, are merely political propaganda issued by people with vested interests.

    I have constantly and persistently distanced myself from any violent or militant act by anyone calling themselves Christian, left right or in between. That is known. I am a Bible believing Christian which, as I have said so many times only a complete dolt would have missed it, means that I am obliged and willing to walk in love with all people regardless of their theistic or atheistic background, but with the proviso that they are aware that I am prepared to remain in the truth and not compromise the lifestyle God has called me to.

    You persist in your extremist ways because you know very well you have not a leg to stand on when attempting to defend some of antics of the groups you support. There is militance and extreme activist lobbying going on all around you and you seek to find something, anything which you can lay on evangelicals for believing the Bible. Yes, daring to believe the Bible.

    Your knee jerk reaction always is to come up with some far fetched moral equivalence which is so distantly removed from normal evangelical Bible believing practices that it is a wonder even Greg is able to put up with your antics without making some comment or other about your dangerous bias.

    On swearing, I have already qualified my perspective. I am not offended in general by rough hewn expletives, only in their delivery. It is plain that yours was far more than just a letting off of steam or a tongue in cheek flippant fobbing off of a comment I made. You meant what you said in a vile, aggressive, disgraceful manner. It was offensive. It was uncalled for. And it should never have been uttered by a true, peace-loving, enlightened believer.

  94. Greg,
    don’t sit on your hands crying like a little girl because you don’t like the post

    You think standing up for principles of decency and truth is crying? I’m pointing out some pretty disgusting accusations and lousy manners, and you think I’m crying? The only thing which brings me to tears here is the lack of respect for the Word of God.

    The post was and is a disgrace. I am calling it out for what it is. It claims all the virtuosity of walking with Christ and denies that anyone but the left walks this way. Everyone else is evil, wicked and aligned to monstrous dictators who are engaged in genocide!

    And still you’ve failed to distance yourself from this false accusation.

    All you say is ‘write another post’! No. I’m calling you out on the one you published here. So, if you have distanced yourself from those comments why not say so and be done with it?

  95. I’ve just re-read the article to try and work out why you’re so upset Steve, and I can’t for the life of me understand – it is quite obvious that the writer is talking about the Christian right in America which has a totally different flavour and exhibits all the hallmarks described in the article – nowhere could you possibly claim that the article is pointing at you ad saying you and your theology is like that.

    You have self-identified and claimed we are saying you are like that – bullshit mate – you’re looking for shit where their is none

  96. So, if you have distanced yourself from those comments why not say so and be done with it?

    I don’t – I agree with the post in the context in which it is written.

    Can you see here how the context is so important? That once again you have imposed your view on a text written just a short time ago, yet you can;t comprehend the literary nuances, yet you claim to reliably understand adn interpret a text that is up to 3600yrs old?

  97. I know enough evangelical and Pentecostal US believers to know that what you are saying in he post is a disgrace.

    If one of us hurts we all hurt.

    When I pointed out several times on this thread that this was a US liberal driven perspective you said nothing to support what i said. No. You and Bones pressed it further.

    You are still defending it, albeit from a more distant position.

    Bones, meanwhile, has added to it.

  98. The context is that Bible believing evangelicals are akin to right wing Christians who are akin to Pol Pot and Hitler who engaged in genocide.

    That is what you are saying isn’t it?

  99. The context is that Bible believing evangelicals are akin to right wing Christians who are akin to Pol Pot and Hitler who engaged in genocide.

    Read the post again, slowly, you are determined to make the article; which I didn’t write and so I’m not making any assertions in the article, the author himself is, not me, you are determined to make it all about you aren’t you – so you can continue in your misguided delusion that you are being persecuted

  100. I know enough evangelical and Pentecostal US believers to know that what you are saying in he post is a disgrace.

    I’m not saying anything in the post..I didn’t write it

  101. The title you gave it is either misleading or you mean it. You claim it as an ‘open letter from the left to the right’. What else am I supposed to believe but that you are arguing in agreement with the writer for certain position.

    I took the context to be in line with several recent posts and threads which speak in similar terms. You would regard me as of the right, and Bones always argues with me as a person of the right, mainly because he tends to make up things about people he has discussions with and argues in accordance with his own opinion of them rather than theirs.

    My point is that there is, spiritually, no left or right to the Body of Christ.

    Our politics have nothing to do with God’s perspective of the Body.

    This means the article is flawed when it speaks of a Christian right and a Christian left.

    It is political nonsense.

    The Body is not left or right.

    It is of Christ.

    Whatever our political or social position, we are called to follow Christ, not the ideology of the world.

  102. Perhaps you could think I am, lets see now, giving an article a more interesting title? My giving it a title doesn’t mean I agree or disagree although I do agree, but you are making it about you…as if the article was commissioned by bones and me to get up your nose!

  103. Well, look, Greg, Bones has constantly made himself to be a liberal and of the left. He can deny this if he wants. his is the assertion that thee is an enemy right, and he plays up to it.

    Secondly, as long as you source known liberal sits you will be associated with them.

    ‘Talk in Action’ is a self-declred left wing liberal site dedicated to ‘exposing’ the ‘Christian right’. It even claims YWAM is a dangerous right wing Christian sect hellbent on militant dominion of the world! YWAM! I’m serious! This site is so far to the left of reality it’s a wonder it stays on the planet! It is so biased it should take up lawn bowls!

    This is the direction this site is taking. If I put up a post the response goes to this bias, no matter what I say, even if I add middle of the road interesting things which are not really political.

    That’s OK. I’m just facing the reality of were the site is going.

    I don’t see the point of being abused and becoming abusive just to get nowhere.

    And I’m not manoeuvring the thread to make it personal. It is there in black and white who he target group is. And there are those who would include people from my associations in that mix. I am as much a part of them as they of me. If you attack one of them, you do attack me, but I am just letting you know what is wrong with your assertions when you paste up controversy in your own name.

  104. “mainly because he tends to make up things about people he has discussions”

    You should have been on Rios Montt’s defence team. You might have got him off.

    Did the Christian Right support the genocidal Rios Montt or not?

    Evangelicals like the late John Stott want nothing to do with the Christian Right.

  105. You know, as I said earlier, if the post had just continued in the vein of the first paragraphs I would have been OK with it, although I would have said its views were applicable to all Christians, not just the left, but then it attacked, no monstered, the Christian right with the Pol Pot stuff, and the agenda shifted dramatically.

    Bones did the same with another article which went along agreeably for a while but then mauled the right unnecessarily. It drew lines where there should have been none. It had the components of a work of peace until it added a paragraph which declared war.

    When you say you are Christian and not of the left I can believe that, but when you make comparisons between the left and right from a left perspective, or demonise another allegedly opposed segment of the Body, then you do actually align yourself with their view if you strongly agree with it or defend it.

    No genuine Christian person of the right is supportive of genocide. In fact, the vast majority would be horrified. To suggest the Christians who are on the republican side of politics would knowingly support atrocities is a stretch of truth. Whilst they are more likely to support a ‘just war’, they would only do so to defend liberty, but never, in he modern era, as genocide. Of course, this is a difficult track to go down, and fraught with danger, even in a discussion on what constitutes a ‘just war’, or if such a thing exists, but when liberty is at stake something has to give one way or another.

    But to include material which suggests Christians with a republican mindset are wicked, evil warmongering death beasts is not helpful. It sets an agenda for a spiteful and destructive debate.

  106. Bones,
    “mainly because he tends to make up things about people he has discussions”
    You should have been on Rios Montt’s defence team. You might have got him off.

    Case in point.

  107. You see, if Bones can successfully demonise the right and associate Bible believing evangelicals with them, that is, evangelicals who believe what God says and take Him at His Word, he has, in his own mind, taken the hill and can successfully defend his precarious universalist position.

    This is in a discussion, of course, and not in Biblical reality, because the Bible, or rather, the Word of God, can’t actually be manipulated from God’s course. It just doesn’t make sense to even try.

    So search Google for bad things to associate with Bible believing Christians and make a strong, aggressive case for demonising them and, as far as the web discussion goes, you are in a constantly winning position.

    The trouble with this is that God will not be moved from his own course of action, and what he says he means, and we are not here to have an opinion or interpretation of what he means, but an understanding of what he says, so if this blows away our idea of what a theology should be that is tough.

    The claim that my theology is based on my opinion is wrong. My opinion has nothing to do with it. His Word says what it says. I can only do what it says. I don’t have a choice, or an opinion, or an opposing view. Obedience isn’t about agreement, although it helps to agree.

    So, if God says there is a judgement, guess what. There is a judgment. It is not fr us to say we agree or disagree with a judgment. It is his decision to make.

    You say we have a brain so use it. Fine, but if our brain sifts the Word into a meaning that is not intended then our brain has let us down. If we say ‘evolution over creation’ we are using, not our own brain, but the ideology of others who influence our brain.

    We see, sometimes, what we are told to see, not what we actually see. I’d rather see what God says I see than what man says I see.

    I had a discussion with a very intelligent autistic man last week, who sees things in completely different ways to the rest of us. he wasn’t wrong about his worldview, but often, growing up, got into trouble because of it, mainly because others saw things from a completely different perspective and, though they were right according to due process, once he explained, he was also right all along.

    My world has to be shaped by what God’s Word reveals before I see from the natural perspective. He always sees things from a better perspective.

  108. I still cannot see how there can be a Christian Right or Left – the contention is quite frankly silly. There is no left and right paradigm in the kingdom as far as I have seen, just as there is no partiality in Christ.

    Party spirits are horrible – they bring only division, discord and dissonance. This is not the division of flesh and Spirit which is the circumcision of the soul, but the operation of party spirits. How can we place a Christian patch on an old program or wineskin or robe and it not burst or be rent?

    Are we Eagles or one winged chooks guys? An eagle needs both wings as it flies and defending either side of the divide is to defend lies. Its a form of trench warfare, where people defend their entrenched conquests from the ditches on either side of the highway of holiness thinking that they are fighting a good fight.

    It is like watching the useful idiots duke it out over the electorate in my home country, or any other 2 party duopoly, thinking that their vote actually means something when in reality the Crown and the Bankers rule the roost and the International and National Socialist Parties, in NZ called National and Labour, are two sides of a tag team working for the same management. perpetuating the same myth, which is why no matter who is in power, the direction the lemmings are being led is inevitable.

    In Tasmania, Christian Colonistas killed the local Aboriginals by systematically hearding them toward a cliff and into the sea. Now your nation is being systematically herded toward a fiscal cliff as the real owners of the Commonwealth have need of “their” land and resources and it is time to cull the tenants and steal the fruits of their labours. How deliciously ironic.

    The only way you will see through all the machinations of men is to forsake the Babylonian system by getting a NEW operating system for your PC and hooking up with the Heavenly Main Frame and to realize that you have been conditioned and trained to think along certain lines and need to become as a little child, a blank slate, so that you may receive the kingdom. Its a NEW WAY of thinking, yet not new, but old or as at the beginning.

    The Church has made salvation a burden rather than a blessing, and the Churches are contesting to see who can win the most to Christ and to establish just who it is that serves Him best – it is just all nonsense and it will stop. Once you realize that Jesus has already saved the world and it is our job to represent heaven to them, and not to get them to heaven, it makes life much more tolerable.

    Jesus only gives His disciples, His followers, ONE COMMAND, and that is to LOVE, one to another, even as I have first loved you, but for transgressors of the foundational Law of Love, He gives the Law of sin and death.

    I don’t see any future for left and right in that paradigm, just “Free” or “Imprisoned” and we are all of us in the end, prisoners of Christ, for God has consigned all Mankind to disobedience, to imprisonment, so that He could have mercy to all.

    We move forward, left-right-left-right-left…right? If it is left, left left, or right, right, right then we just go in circles and bump into each other. From where come the wars and fightings amongst you? Where?

  109. So, if God says there is a judgement, guess what. There is a judgment.

    And if George W Bush says that God told him to invade Iraq, then guess what?

    He’s a f**king nutbag and liar.

    Congrats to the Christian Right for helping the NRA defeat tougher restrictions on guns in the US.

    Well done.

    Jesus would be proud.

    “Then Jesus said to them all: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny gays and take up their Bushmaster daily and follow me.”

  110. But Jesus said,TODAY YOU WILL BE WITH ME IN PARADISE.

    23 So the Lord God “”BANISHED”” him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man “””OUT”””, he placed on the east side[e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.(Genesis 3)

    As you can see the scripture declares that the Lord God Ousted them(MAN) from a Sanctuary in which God dwelt.

    But through faith in Christ,those who live according to the truth,may live in a kingdom in which God dwells.

    To a Higher Kingdom,not a lower one.

    2 Corinthians 12
    1I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. 2I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. 3And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— 4was caught up to ”’PARADISE”’ and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell. 5I will boast about a man like that, but I will not boast about myself, except about my weaknesses.

    So someone was caught up,,,but not down.

  111. The gays don’t agree with Bones on George W Bush.

    Elton John:
    ‘In an interview Tuesday, rock superstar Elton John told ABC News and Yahoo!’s Power Players that the American president who has done most to spread awareness about HIV is former Commander in Chief George W. Bush’.

    That’s because for ten years, since the initiative began in 2003, Bush’s initiative has grown in momentum amongst AIDS sufferers.

    ‘This is a moment for all Americans to be proud of the best thing George W. Bush did as president: launching an initiative to combat AIDS in Africa that has saved millions of lives.

    All week, more than 20,000 delegates from around the world have been attending the 19th International AIDS Conference here in Washington. They look like any other group of conventioneers, laden with satchels and garlanded with name tags. But some of these men and women would be dead if not for Bush’s foresight and compassion.

    Those are not words I frequently use to describe Bush or his presidency. But credit and praise must be given where they are due, and Bush’s accomplishment — the President’s Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief, or PEPFAR — deserves accolades. It is a reminder that the United States can still be both great and good.

    When the Bush administration inaugurated the program in 2003, fewer than 50,000 HIV-infected people on the African continent were receiving the antire­troviral drugs that keep the virus in check and halt the progression toward full-blown AIDS. By the time Bush left office, the number had increased to nearly 2 million. Today, the United States is directly supporting antiretroviral treatment for more than 4 million men, women and children worldwide, primarily in Africa.

    This is an amazing accomplishment, especially because it wasn’t supposed to be possible.

    Before PEPFAR, the conventional wisdom was that the drug-treatment regimens that were saving lives in developed countries would not work in Africa. Poor, uneducated people in communities lacking even the most basic infrastructure could not be expected to take the right pill at the right time every day. When the drugs are taken haphazardly, the virus mutates and becomes resistant. Therefore, this reasoning went, trying to administer antiretroviral treatment in poor African countries might actually be worse than doing nothing at all.

    The Bush administration rejected these arguments, which turned out to be categorically wrong.This is a moment for all Americans to be proud of the best thing George W. Bush did as president: launching an initiative to combat AIDS in Africa that has saved millions of lives.

    All week, more than 20,000 delegates from around the world have been attending the 19th International AIDS Conference here in Washington. They look like any other group of conventioneers, laden with satchels and garlanded with name tags. But some of these men and women would be dead if not for Bush’s foresight and compassion.

    Those are not words I frequently use to describe Bush or his presidency. But credit and praise must be given where they are due, and Bush’s accomplishment — the President’s Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief, or PEPFAR — deserves accolades. It is a reminder that the United States can still be both great and good.

    When the Bush administration inaugurated the program in 2003, fewer than 50,000 HIV-infected people on the African continent were receiving the antire­troviral drugs that keep the virus in check and halt the progression toward full-blown AIDS. By the time Bush left office, the number had increased to nearly 2 million. Today, the United States is directly supporting antiretroviral treatment for more than 4 million men, women and children worldwide, primarily in Africa.

    This is an amazing accomplishment, especially because it wasn’t supposed to be possible.

    Before PEPFAR, the conventional wisdom was that the drug-treatment regimens that were saving lives in developed countries would not work in Africa. Poor, uneducated people in communities lacking even the most basic infrastructure could not be expected to take the right pill at the right time every day. When the drugs are taken haphazardly, the virus mutates and becomes resistant. Therefore, this reasoning went, trying to administer antiretroviral treatment in poor African countries might actually be worse than doing nothing at all.

    The Bush administration rejected these arguments, which turned out to be categorically wrong.’

    http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2012-07-26/opinions/35487798_1_african-countries-pepfar-antiretroviral-treatment

    Elton John, one gay who had his opinion changed about Bush, acknowledges the value of George Ws contribution.

    ‘Elton John continued that trend. He cited Bush’s President’s Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief in 2004 for providing treatment and prevention awareness for Africans. PEPFAR was a $15 billion program, reports the Power Players. John admitted that meeting Bush at the Kennedy Center Honors in 2004 softened his view of Bush.*

    *Report from International Business Times.

  112. So, somehow this absolves Bush from his complicity in Dick Cheney’s evil plans? I don’t think so! Besides, there is ample evidence AIDS was developed as a depopulation tool and profit producer for Big Pharma and “trialled” on the Gay community in NY concealed in Hep B Vaccinations. Check it out.

    Green monkey virus indeed, they pulled the same stunt with Polio.

    What is is G W’s position on DUI? Do you actually think that George W Bush is really a Christian? How naive – the population of Iraq are not so easily fooled as useful idiot Western Christians.

    Consider this guys, if I was to be complicit in the culling of a few million while stealing their resources, and then said that I was serving/following Jesus Christ, OR if I was raining Hellfire down on innocent civilians in the name of Jesus, you would say, and rightly so, that I was either certifiably insane, or an absolute liar who ought not to be trusted with a BB gun let alone a huge modern army.

    Someone pass me a bucket already. There is a really creepy photo of GW in the White House with a cabal of Lubovitcher Rabbis hovering over him like vultures ready to prey upon a corpse. This is all working toward a New World Order folks, and creepy conciliatory crap about lying devils and poofters goes down like a bucket of warm sick.

    Get this straight – man was forbidden to eat from the tree of life – the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil is death. The Tree of Life is in the midst of the garden which is YOU. The way to it is guarded by a messenger with a sword and you cannot enter in to Life without being cut free from the fetters of the flesh – to wit – to become circumcised in heart – aka converted.

    The kingdom Life is this Life – they are one and the same – the Life of the Tree is already in thee an is your inner man. The way is open, but the sword is sharper than any two edged sword and it rightly divides and separates between flesh and Spirit. The function of the Pharisee is to prevent this revelation of the kingdom within and to bar the way into the kingdom with rules, regulations and conditions – to keep you eating from the tree that they do – the tree of knowledge of good and evil, the fruit of which is death. Get it?

  113. I asked God about the Americans and their guns and I heard that HE was going to take the weapons and wealth that they had trusted in away from them, that they had trusted in the arm of the flesh instead of relying upon their faith in God. And of course some numbskull will leap up and say that we need armies and police and all that and totally forget about such stories as that of Gideon whose obedience saw an entire army destroyed without “firing a round” so to speak. It is not Obama taking your guns but God, however the way Obama is doing this is sick beyond comprehension – or as he himself said, “How many more children have to be sacrificed?” God is going to sift America, and the world, and He will use Satan to do it. Who do you think is really in charge here?

  114. *throws up hands in despair* *bashes head against wall* *leaves room, shaking head in disbelief*

  115. That logo is kind of funny – The Christ Ian left – and a palm frond with 11 leaves. 11 is a big ass occultic number, big with Freemasons and such and represents in-completion or destruction. The cross is an interesting one as it never actually appears in scripture – but a tree or staff or stake is the symbol used. Cross and crucify were added much later in place of stauros and stauroo.

    The t or cross is the symbol of Tammuz, but also of Tau, the last letter of both Hebrew and Aramaic alphabets. If you can get this, the Christ of the “christian cross” is the false christ – the antichrist image – the Christ of the Stake or Tree is the one which sets you free to walk in the Power of the resurrection – the antichrist of the cross keeps you bound in judgment.

    Why do you think Catholic Churches have great big old images of a dead savior and eat the flesh and drink the blood thereof? It is a religion of DEATH and traditions which deny and negate the Word! Why do most churches center around the image of the Cross? And no, I am not a JW, but even they know a thing or two in their collective grandiose dementia.

    It is “OK” to talk about Jesus in His earthly ministry, it is OK to picture Him on the “Cross”, but it seems to be not OK to walk in the Power of the resurrection and reign in Life by One Christ Jesus, as a king and a priest of a New Covenant, and the reason why I know that this is so is that there is so little power in the Church and in the lives of Xians and you are reduced to politics and bickering over who is right and who is wrong. This is why you have no power and a dead savior instead of access to The Tree of Life.

    Yes, you must first get a revelation of Jesus on the Stake, Tree or Cross (tick one) and His sacrifice, but I don’t even think the Church for the most part even gets that, that there is not a debt to be paid so much as an obligation to be obliterated, the Life Blood of Jesus covering the note which was against us.

    The veil of the flesh has been rent, the way into the holy of holies is open – you can come in and go out – provided you are cut free from your flesh. The only Way is to forsake all you know and to exchange you pearls (coping mechanisms and philosophies) for His Pearl of Great Price. But it is one thing to talk about it, and quite another to actually go through with it and most would rather a quick fix “Born again” experience than submit to the process of conversion from death to Life.

    God is going to take away the props and the preferences which keep us distracted, and Mankind is going to have some time out to reflect, but out of this will come a New revelation of Jesus Christ to annihilate the old. The so-called New Age is merely the culmination of all the Old Serpent religions coming together as one. The real NEW will blow it away.

  116. Bones, it seems that “God” tells lots of people to do things which are contrary to the nature of God, so I think that the words of Jesus might shine some light on that mess. He told the Pharisees that they were (being) as gods – and Paul wrote about the abomination of desolation which stands in place of God – in other words it is when we are god that “God” tells us what we want to hear.

    I would warrant that what GW heard was the abomination of his own religious pride and the fruit of it was and is death. Or maybe it really was his god who spoke to him? Satan himself may appear as angel of light and the ultimate “revelation” of Freemasonry is Lucifer as God, and the Christian God as Satan.

    Where it all kind of gets curly though is in weighing such things as Jesus being a serpent upon a pole, or the good serpent of Moses which consumed the evil serpents, and of Jesus being made in the form of serpent as it were, coming in the flesh, being tempted in all points like as we, yet without sin. Of Him becoming AS our serpent self of sin so we could become His righteousness – even though He did not sin, the consequences of all sin came upon Him as the scapegoat for all Mankind.

    George W’s salvation story is virtually identical to that of arch deceiver, Cyrus Scofield. Go figure, if it worked once…and the greater part of Protestant American Christendom has been duped by the Scofield commentaries, which have been further expanded and “developed” over the years and are still owned by Oxford University. They are a masterwork of deception along with the KJV which many worship as the inerrant Word of God. This set folk up for such as Georgie boy and Ronald Raygun. But the people who rallied behind Obama are no better, having their own spurious beliefs which render them vulnerable to on-going deception.

    I learned all I need to know of GW’s god when I saw an image of an Iraqi mother comforting her dying child and the look on his face and hers reduced me to hot tears, my only consolation in knowing that the child would be in Paradise with the real God, probably praying for George W’s soul!

    So Bones, did you approve of my revelation of just who the goats and sheep are and what that is all about? I thought it was simply stunning! The real answers always are simple and stunning. The Right hand is authority, the left hand is healing – those on His left need healing, those on His right are already under His authority and are healed of the sickness that is sin. Nice. Simple. Stunning.

    But then there are those who would rather believe in a God of vengeance who sends the greater part of humanity (is it half or most?) to some mythical place called Hell to be tortured for all eternity. Really, a child could see through what theologians uphold as truth. If the way is narrow and only the very few find it, that kind of makes God a total loser, rather than a TOTAL LOOSER.

    He told me that He is no loser, that He is a winner – He wins souls and He loses none – and don’t quote the line about Judas being the only one lost, as if you probably do not understood what the Jews believe and what that means therefore, that to be lost does not mean you go to hell but to Gehenna for a toasting…to burn off all that offends and prevents…the destruction of pride, and the death of death.

  117. Careful Vice Pope Gregorius, I might just know some stuff that you don’t, i would not want to stumble you. Just agree with me that if it is so, God will let you know, and if it is not, He will let me know. Agreed? Amen?

  118. By the way Greg, I think our nation is about to get screwed by the NWO (as is Oz too if they only knew it). You will remember to pray for us, yes? There is crazy stuff happening here – high static electricity in the midst of torrential downpours, and weather patterns unlike anything we have seen except before the other EQ’s. We are on earthquake watch this weekend and also around June 23. Too many ducks in a row for comfort’s sake. Torrential rain in Southern China, earthquake, SBX platform parked up in South China Sea? WTF is going on guys, are your eyes open?

    Now Pope Gregory the Turd (that is the Chardonnay talking, not me, wine is a mocker, after all…), sometime back when the Brisbane River was in flood, I asked the Spirit of God to show me IF and if so HOW to pray the will of God over the situation. I heard to command the high tide to be one metre less than expected, so I released faith and it was so. My wife and I have a special bond in our heart with Brisbane and South East Queensland. Its a great place – we love it.

    That is the beauty of a slow moving disaster – however an Earthquake is quite a different beast – you do not know what shit scared means until you have been in a major auto accident as a passenger or a major earthquake. Funny thing is though, that in the EQ’s, I have found like a fortress like strength within to withstand, to keep me strong, an earthquake proof dwelling from heaven.

    You guys think you have had some trials? Yeah, right….

    Greg, you would do well to meet Willem Bellaard of University Queensland -I think you and he would really hit it off. I respect Willem’s gifts and calling and most times his judgment. He has some amazing testimonies of God’s grace in operation and is well in touch with all who believe and is also an ardent socialist evangelical with a soft spot for Anglicans who is at ease with pretty much anyone and anybody anywhere, a real renaissance man for all seasons. Get to know him, he is a great guy and will expand your thinking.

  119. I am serious…have lunch with Willem…I will tell him to make it on him…he can afford it…but seriously…he would really add to your life…I sense this…in the Spirit…prove me wrong Greg…Willem Bellaard, University of Queensland, Political Science Department. He is a great guy, you’ll love him.

  120. …and pigs will fly!

    One thing I an predict, and that is the end of this blog as we know it.

    Keep taking the tablets, everyone.

  121. Make mine a Gos-pill…as to the end of this blog…you should see what happened to the churches that called the likes of me crazy over here…though chances are you may not hear from me for a while…there seems to be a growing expectation in various circles that we are going to have another quake this weekend…you see there is no left and right to those New World Order johnnies…left and right is for losers…you need to be a LOOSER, RIGHT? And if you do not think that they can make quakes and floods and droughts with Teslar technology and aerial spraying, think again, other wise you are just an ignorant peasant on the Rothschild Estates.

    So Greg and all, perhaps you might ask the Spirit of God if and how to pray for us here, and those poor sods in America…the Tornado was described as highly unusual and by its description developed the same way as a smaller, yet identical storm cell which hit Auckland last year…thing is though…Auckland never gets Tornadoes…but then they usually develop and practice these things in NZ and OZ…as they pretty much own and or control them both…and treat them as private fiefdoms to fleece at their leisure.

    No left and right for these guys…they invent such nonsense to keep you distracted while they keep you in chains. And then we have Handmesomepooper, Anderson Cooper, CIA mockingbird agent, and all the other shills like Ellen, Dr Phil, Dope-ra, Bill O’Reilly etc keeping the people fed a diet of delusion.

    The Rothschild MO is to control both sides of a conflict to determine the outcomes, and why stop there? Why stop at exploiting opportunities when you can create your own exploitable opportunities? The guys who set up the modern political systems are way smarter than you Greg, in fact, they are devilishly smart. You’re not a Freemason are you Greg, like Rudd and your next PM? Freemasons pretty much rule the Anglican Communion, as they do the Catholic Church…especially now…it is they who are largely the Genesis of the “World Church”…guys like Norman Vincent Peale…now there is an Anglican for you…his work leavened the lives of multiplied millions…and then there is Billy and his God shaped hole…

    Jesus came with a Sword to divide…and he will divide the dividers…or at least that is what he told me…does He talk with you Greg…? What is He telling you Greg…? He told me that there are people who want to cleave this planet in two and destroy God’s creation, and that they want to tap into the power of the Universe, but what they do not realize is that HE is the POWER of GOD. In other words, they are crazy, as is anyone who would presume or imagine to come against God and His creation. But they are mad, so what would you expect already, sanctified sanity from Satanists?

  122. Can you even remember [without peeking at the post] what this thread is about, Ian?

    If that jumble of words is any indication of what is going in that mind of yours, I’d say you suffered from cohesive cognition deficit.

    The only thing we need to know right now, is how to reach out to people, help meet their needs, body soul and spirit, and lead them to Jesus.

    Everything else is vanity. Knowledge puffs up, love edifies.

  123. Of course, the US left would never pick on Christians, hinder them, or seek to prevent them from operating, or even defy the First Amendment.

    In the news as we speak…

    Under the direction of Lois Lerner, the Federal Election Commission sued the Christian Coalition in the 1990s. She harassed the Christian Coalition for three election cycles. She lost her case. Lerner even asked one conservative during the case if Pat Robertson prayed over him. (Sound familiar?)

    These actions landed her at the IRS where she used the same tactics against conservatives and Christians – only on a much larger scale. 500 conservative and Christian groups were illegally targeted by the Obama IRS during her tenure. For twenty-seven months the Obama IRS refused to approve any Tea Party applications for tax-exempt status. At the same time the Obama IRS approved dozens of progressive applications.

    What has the Federal Election Commission to do with who prays for whom? The First Amendment protects individuals and groups from harassment by Government for any religious activity, or right of public assembly, including being Christians and praying for each other.

    And why is Obama supporting the activists and progressives whilst investigating and penalising Christian groups?

  124. Whats seems more pertinent is who is Lois Lerner PREYING upon? Though personally I would be more concerned about Pat Robertson’s Masonic affiliations and fake words of knowledge, his huge personal fortune (Christians who have mega-millions while their brother’s starve?), and the means by which he became so influential – as in beware the influence of the Pharisees…operation Mockingbird was a lot more involved than just Anderson Cooper and Co and there are some demons in Pat’s closet.

    The Nazis in Washington post WW2 set about to win the religious heart of America in order to harvest agreement – at which point Greg will tell me I am talking crap but this is how “they” work – get people of faith in agreement around traditions, myths and doctrines of devils and they will do the rest – that is why it is called INFLUENCE. Man is by design a creative being and the gifts and callings of God are without recalcitrance – they function by faith and there is no respect of persons. You can use the gifts God grants to build a better bomb or a better life, and what we do with his gifts is what we have to give an account for.

    When God showed me the “spirits” of those who called Katrina into being, their faith having been focused by two false prophets, Bakker and Clement (beware!) who had both previously prophesied the destruction of New Orleans by a hurricane. If you get enough people in agreement then there is nothing that might be restrained from them – remember that one Greg? Its from Babylon…its the Babylonian agreement principle which Satan stole from God, as in if any two or thee agree…the main difference between the kingdom and Babylon is that in the kingdom you only need two or three in agreement with God to get things done, but in Babylon you have to get everyone on the same page, and that is what World Govt is all about….the resurgence of Babylon and one universal language called Binary Code.

    God confused language and therefore understanding – and this blog is eloquent testimony to it being an ongoing situation in that people would rather defend a position than seek understanding, as they already have their own understanding.

    The looney Left are not really the problem the religious right potentially are and John 16:1-3 springs to mind. In fact, any religious person who is subject to partiality and who cannot comprehend the concept of the complete restoration of all things in Christ, is very dangerous, and that is why you are all in the same prison. Are you waking up yet, are you getting it yet? Do you really think that you know the Truth and that the Truth has already set you free? If you know the Truth then you will know the Power of Salvation and you will do exploits….

    Whether the Left or Right “win”, whether the plan or intention is that we end up with a National Socialist or International Socialist Totalitarian Super State, aka World Govt, is immaterial, as the whole thing is a Punch and Judy show and thanks to the wonders of TV and media manipulation, the people themselves largely function as puppets such that if you are not getting your News from heaven, then heaven help you. For now, I prefer Abbie Martin to Anderson Cooper, but when it comes to TV there is not much left worth watching, right?

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